Looking for someone... Could you all just chill?

Cat's Squirrel

Well-known member
I disagree.
I do know people that have accomplished those things. If you've been paying attention to my posts you would have gotten some of the answers that you seek. Apparently you just want to argue.
If the CofS had ever had anybody who could do the things OTs are supposed to do, they would have had him or her on TV within a week. I don't believe clears exist because I don't believe the reactive mind exists - it was a figment of Hubbard's imagination.
 
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ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
You seem quite deluded and, at times, almost completely incomprehensible.
Possibly . . . very likely . . . PUI

Posting under the influence is the offense of posting, typing, or sitting in front of a computer screen
while impaired by alcohol or drugs, to a level that renders the poster incapable of safely writing sensible
comments that can be understood by fellow human beings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've seen it before. :whistle:
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
some of you like to hide behind your computers and facades.
Well to be fair, a lot of that is directly caused by CoS policy. People don't want to have hate websites made about them, they don't want rotten meat or sex toys sent to their work address, they don't want to have their pets poisoned, they don't want their kids to be harassed on their way from school and they don't want their loved ones inside the CoS to be fed to the ethics gators.

I think if CoS was fine with having a critical discussion without going after critics with violence, smear campaigns and fair game, then nobody would need to hide behind anything.

So most of the internet anonymity in the ex-scn world is created by design by Davey and his goons. And this dates back before him, to the 1960s at least.

I used to call him Ronnie. That's how close I was to him.
I don't mind critical thinking however I don't like to be ridiculed.
I didn't intend to attack or ridicule you, or anyone else in the independent field for that matter. If people want to use scn techniques without all the abusive "corporate scientology" practices, misconceptions and prices, then I have no problem with that.

I see a lot of black-and-white thinking floating around in the ex-scn world though. There are quite a few people who think that "Ron was never wrong about anything" and an equal number of people who came to believe that "Hubbard was never right about anything and all he did was horrible".
My own opinion is that a productive approach starts when we allow ourselves to acknowledge Hubbard's failings and at the same time allow Hubbard "to have a win" when he deserves it. A part of that is to get rid of the "sole source" thinking and look into the ideas he borrowed and the original people behind them. Another part is allowing yourself "to be right": to experiment and reject the parts of Hubbard's philosophy that one finds nonsensical and replace them with one's own ingenuity and ideas.
CoS teaches us that Ron already figured everythign out and nothing can ever be improved or changed for the better. That to me is one of the most harmful lies of the organization.

That's my take on it.
 
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Irayam

Well-known member
So I will leave you with this thought; anyone that never got any gains or enhancement from the tech obviously didn't understand something along the way.
Hi Bob,

I think that what is working in scientology is what is coming from other sources than LRH (i.e. psychology or parts of other technologies or religions).

My own interpretation of the story of scientolology is something like that:
  • Ron searching a way to make money.
  • Had the idea to start an improvement movement or religion.
  • As a SF author, he’s starting to build a nice story about the mind seen as an computer analogy.
  • Surrounded by people who claim to have gains and get better after auditing, he start to believe he has found something working.
  • The whole thing turns into a religion to avoid trouble with the law.
  • What follows is a headlong rush with new procedures and new promises.
  • LRH loses his mind completely and ends up in a miserable way in an RV.
  • David enters the scene and takes over.
  • Scientology is slowly disappearing due to a lack of new followers.
  • Small groups of people who are disappointed but still have hope that tech works continue to appear and disappear here and there. This will probably last until the end of human history.
I have never had any permanent gains with Scientology. I have felt a little better at times but mostly much worse, especially toward the end of my 10+ years of involvement.

Today, more than 30 years after leaving the cult and having returned to sound finances, I am truly MUCH happier.

There were never any clears.
There were never any OTs
There were never any happy people in Scientology.

So when people as respectable as they are come out and say that tech works, I can only sympathize with them.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
My frank opinion? Hubbard was a manipulator and a narcissist who stole other people's ideas, attributing them to himself to get praise and admiration. But he was not a sadist or a psychopath.
.
You exude great certainty for someone who obviously never met nor researched the behavior of L. Ron Hubbard.

He was quite obviously both a sadist and a psychopath.

Laughing at old people who couldn't swim or had physical incapacity as they are thrown from great heights overboard, smashing into the ship on the way down and experiencing traumatic injuries. That's sadism. Throwing a 3 year old into a dark nightmarish chain locker for days while they hysterically cried. That's sadism. How many examples do you need?

Not a psychopath? Trying to frame Paulette Cooper for fake bomb threats that Hubbard himself orchestrated. Trying to have her arrested as a terrorist and thrown into federal prison for a long and torturous sentence. Only a psychopath would do that. Trying to send in thugs to befriend and live with Paulette in an effort to drive her insane so that she was committed to an insane asylum? That's something only psychopath would do. Trying to drive her to commit suicide. That's only something psychopath would do.

An entire set of encyclopedic volumes could be filled with sadistic and psychopathic incidents.

What's that, you need another one? Sure. How about both of them together—PSYCHOPATHIC SADISM? (link)

"When she threatened to leave him unless he got help, he kidnapped their daughter Alexis and fled with her Cuba. Because he had trouble caring for her, he hired a mother and daughter with special needs to look after her, and they reportedly kept her in a cage. Meanwhile, he called Sara and told her that he had murdered their daughter, chopped her up into bits, and threw her into a river."

You have a bad habit of making emphatic pronouncements that are diametrically opposed to well established facts. Try researching for 5 minutes before offering your expert opinions.

.
 
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Karakorum

Well-known member
There were never any clears.
I was formally clear. With my imperfect eyesight and bad memory and all that. :D

There were never any happy people in Scientology.
I think that is going to far. I'm under the impression that there were a lot of happy people in the 50s and early 60s. There might still be some happy people in the modern era (FSMs?), though almost certainly not on staff or in the SO.

My own interpretation of the story of scientolology is something like that:
  • Ron searching a way to make money.
  • Had the idea to start an improvement movement or religion.
  • As a SF author, he’s starting to build a nice story about the mind seen as an computer analogy.
  • Surrounded by people who claim to have gains and get better after auditing, he start to believe he has found something working.
  • The whole thing turns into a religion to avoid trouble with the law.
  • What follows is a headlong rush with new procedures and new promises.
  • LRH loses his mind completely and ends up in a miserable way in an RV.
  • David enters the scene and takes over.
  • Scientology is slowly disappearing due to a lack of new followers.
  • Small groups of people who are disappointed but still have hope that tech works continue to appear and disappear here and there. This will probably last until the end of human history.
Not a bad summary. Though as a gator, I feel you missed a point about the SO, ethics and Hubbard's desire for control.

If I had to point to two factors Hubbard most intensly projected onto the organization, it would be his need for control and for admiration.
 

Irayam

Well-known member
I was formally clear. With my imperfect eyesight and bad memory and all that. :D
Yes, I have also a clear number somewhere on a certificate (which I threw away). And also a bad memory and need to wear glasses time to time :)
I think that is going to far. I'm under the impression that there were a lot of happy people in the 50s and early 60s. There might still be some happy people in the modern era (FSMs?), though almost certainly not on staff or in the SO.
It is possible that some people were happy in $cientology many years ago. Personally, I've never been really happy. Even at the very beginning (for me it was in 1975 1976). There was too much pressure from the mission staff to buy courses or to come more often. I was uncomfortable with the other students who obviously hadn't acquired the benefits of tech. Sure, there were good times, even when times were tough. It's when the going gets tough that there's a lot of camaraderie and laughter to make things less dramatic.
But I can't say I was happy.
Of course, the $cientologists gave the impression of being the happiest people on earth!

ETA: correction of my starting date in $cientology.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
My frank opinion? Hubbard was a manipulator and a narcissist who stole other people's ideas, attributing them to himself to get praise and admiration. But he was not a sadist or a psychopath.
Davey is a sadist and/or psychopath. It is natural for people to blame him for everything that is wrong with scientology. A lot of that blame is well deserved. But I feel it is necessary to try to look at Hubbard and realize that there are serious issues with the tech before Davey and also recognize Hubbard's many faults and failings (without unduly turning him into a demon of pure evil).


But it is pure demonic evil to imprison as many people as possible mentally, spiritually and physically and just about everything hubbard did was intended to do one of those things and eventually all three.

Apart from the horrendous things already mentioned by HH above there are the common or garden acts which that man committed and imposed on his followers daily.

*The constant exhaustion and threats hanging over staff all the time, a very deliberate act to make people subservient.
*Working people night and day and making them beg (via CSW) for any time off to see their families, often to get knocked back.
*Separating people permanently from their families and loved ones.
*Ridiculous often unreachable stats.
*Relationship interference and eventual banning of any relationships unless married which more or less forced people to choose often unsuitable partners.
*Billion year contracts!
*Ensuring real friendships could not be created or endure, due to trust issues.
*Freeloader bills ... seriously!
*The no children rule ... which admittedly was an improvement on allowing children and then treating them appallingly in his vile nursery's but that wasn't the reason children in the SO were cancelled, it was because at least one child (that I know of specifically) DIED while under the care of his nursery staff and any bad PR was unwanted.
*Making honest communication impossible.
*The cost of services putting stress on people that is unimaginable but sending the regges in to get more more more and then more.
*Creating an RPF ... an RPF! A system set up purely to degrade and denigrate but dressed up as rehabilitation.
*Endless policy's that read like something the Gestapo could have written.
*Conditions formulas.
*Paying people a pittance if they were paid anything at all, when working on staff.
*Creating an HCO with "ethics officers" to keep us all under control 24/7.
*Surrounding himself by the young, dressing them like idiots and having them wait on him hand, foot and finger.
*Dumping Mary Sue when she was hauled off to jail for doing his bidding re snow white.
*Treating his own children like hostages ... treating everyone he had anything to do with like a hostage.
*Creating a GO (later OSA) ... a worldwide Mafia wannabe styled organisation of amateur thugs put there purely to scare people who may have blinked the wrong way or (heaven forbid) voiced something negative about his religion (lol) cult.

We could go on forever and we could argue precise psychiatric labels forever too and I know you already know all of this and more, so how you can come to the conclusion that he was neither a sadist nor a psychopath is beyond belief. I don't like labelling people but we are talking about hubbard and by just a few of his actions he was the very definition of both ... he was completely unburdened by any sense of appropriateness or decency where other people, their children and their lives in general were concerned. People were just toys for him to play with, break and fling into the trash when they were no longer wanted but only after he had wrung every cent and every ounce of energy from them.

Miscavige is just a tacky copy of hubbard, possibly even nastier, but let's not forget that he was brought up in hubbards scientology, that would have been where he learned to be the little shit that he is ... but hubbard was the original, he made abnormal behaviour normal for whack jobs like miscavige to follow.

:confused:
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

.

There are literally HUNDREDS of articles published online by health care professionals on how to identify a PSYCHOPATH. Here is just one example. And Hubbard fits the bill perfectly on every list of "psychopath character traits" you care to compare him to.

RED HIGHLIGHTS ADDED FOR EMPHASIS:
The true definition of a psychopath in psychiatry is antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), explains Dr. Prakash Masand, a psychiatrist and the founder of the Centers of Psychiatric Excellence. ASPD describes an individual who shows patterns of manipulation and violation to others.​
Masand says the one thing that can be confusing about ASPD are the words “anti-social.”​
“Most people might assume this describes someone who is reserved, a loner, keeps to himself, etc. However, this is not the case in ASPD,” he explains. “When we say anti-social in ASPD, it means someone who goes against society, rules, and other behaviors that are more commonplace.”​
Common signs of psychopathy
Since the term psychopath is not an official diagnosis, experts refer to the signs described under ASPD. According to Masand, some of the more common signs to be aware of include:​

  • disregarding or violating the rights of others
  • socially irresponsible behavior
  • inability to distinguish between right and wrong
  • difficulty with showing remorse or empathy
  • tendency to lie often
  • manipulating and hurting others
  • recurring problems with the law
  • general disregard towards safety and responsibility
Other behaviors that may be signs of ASPD include a tendency to take risks, reckless behavior, and being deceitful with frequent lying.​
Masand says someone exhibiting this behavior may also lack deep emotional connections, have a superficial charm about them, be very aggressive, and get very angry sometimes.​
Additionally, people with ASPD don’t care if they have hurt someone, are impulsive and abusive, and lack remorse. In the case of ASPD, abusive doesn’t necessarily mean violent.
.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
PARADOX: L. Ron Hubbard, the infamously & egregiously unethical, mentally ill, anti-social, covertly hostile, SP, merchant of chaos and criminal—wrote books and sold courses and gave lectures on each of those degraded human conditions, portraying himself as the world's leading expert on ethics, mental illness, anti-social personalities, covert hostility, SPs, merchants of chaos and criminals.

And he pathologically lied that he had personally attained the exact opposite of each of those human disabilities by searching trillions of years ago to discover a scientific technology that brought Hubbard up to the state of OT, wherein he had magical and miraculous powers.

Yet Scientologists believe Hubbard to be the savior not only of this planet but the entire universe. This hideously delusional belief is what Scientologists call "knowingness".

.
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
I'm not going to try and diagnose/label what mental illnesses LRH had but it's pretty obvious he was suffering from something. To me the whole idea of body thetans screams of mental illness. He was haunted by invisible Boogeymen throughout his life, and scientology didn't fix it. Shame he never got therapy.

I generally agree with the rough outline posted earlier. It started as a con and eventually he became a believer, in his own con.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
But it is pure demonic evil to imprison as many people as possible mentally, spiritually and physically and just about everything hubbard did was intended to do one of those things and eventually all three.
It would be, if we assume that Hubbard was an entirely cynical conman. Thing is - I don't think that he was that. Looking at the evidence, I think he honestly believed in a large part of his own nonsense, BTs and postulates and all. I don't think he ever fully deprogrammed himself out of Crowley's cult-thinking. That's where the postulates, "being at cause" and magical thinking comes from.
I also think he honestly believed that scientology does help a lot of people get through their mental issues. He probably thought it helped his own mental issues.

At the same time he made a lot of stuff up entirely and exclusively for the selfish purpose of controlling people, getting rich or evading the law. I'm not saying he was a good guy, but I also don't think he was just a ruthless cynical exploiter. Dave probably is just that.

But that's just my own interpretation based on what I read. I didn't know Hubbard personally.
 
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Harold#1

A VERY STABLE SUPER GENIUS!!
I'm not going to try and diagnose/label what mental illnesses LRH had but it's pretty obvious he was suffering from something. To me the whole idea of body thetans screams of mental illness. He was haunted by invisible Boogeymen throughout his life, and scientology didn't fix it. Shame he never got therapy.

I generally agree with the rough outline posted earlier. It started as a con and eventually he became a believer, in his own con.
I agree with his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia:

"Hubbard then underwent a public divorce in which his wife publicly alleged that Hubbard had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. Upon his return to the US, Hubbard consulted with a psychiatrist to rebut public claims of his mental illness."

"The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard." (Judge Breckenridge, Los Angeles Superior Court)"
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I'm not going to try and diagnose/label what mental illnesses LRH had but it's pretty obvious he was suffering from something. To me the whole idea of body thetans screams of mental illness. He was haunted by invisible Boogeymen throughout his life, and scientology didn't fix it. Shame he never got therapy.

I generally agree with the rough outline posted earlier. It started as a con and eventually he became a believer, in his own con.
.

Yeah it's hard to pick one particular mindset and belief that Hubbard might have held, mainly because it's just as likely (if not more) that he held ALL OF THE FOLLOWING BELIEFS simultaneously:

HUBBARD'S FERVENT BELIEFS:
1. The tech works!​
2. The tech doesn't work!​
3. I am doing all this for mankind!​
4. I am doing all this for myself, L. Ron Hubbard!​
5. Clear & OT states/powers are real!​
6. Clear & OT states/powers are not real!​
7. All this is to save the universe!​
8. All this is to save money in hidden Swiss Bank Accounts!​
9. I believe in all of the above!​
10. I believe in none of the above!​
11. I believe in some of the above!​
12. I never had any beliefs in the first place.​
13. I do sometimes have beliefs if they can be used momentarily as gimmicks to get what I want by defrauding others and/or myself.​
.
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
I'm not going to try and diagnose/label what mental illnesses LRH had but it's pretty obvious he was suffering from something. To me the whole idea of body thetans screams of mental illness. He was haunted by invisible Boogeymen throughout his life, and scientology didn't fix it. Shame he never got therapy.

I generally agree with the rough outline posted earlier. It started as a con and eventually he became a believer, in his own con.
In my opinion he sealed his own and the fate of Scientology in 1972. Read this: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/roos/roos-story.html#msh-explains


"One day, when all the XII's were on leave, except myself, he sent a Messenger down, stating he wanted the folders. After refusal by myself (C/S hat) he became "Commodore" and ordered the folders up, sending some hefty guys down to just get them (a file cabinet full!). [originally "cabinet file"; transposition indicated in handwriting]

They were just taken and that was that.

A few days later I was called up to his Office and upon entry was hit, kicked screamed and shouted at. (Even the Aides were not in sight, hiding as he was really mad!)

He just blew his stack on finding the references to the "discreditable" reads and the contents of some of the personal folders.

He shouted that he had never had such reads and screamed at me to check this with the auditor, MSH, who was also in the room.

She said with a straight face, "No, Sir, you never had such reads". This while there were stacks of folders lying right there full of them. (There is another read which, in writing, closely resembles the reads concerned, a read which is also of prevalence in Goals type auditing. As her handwriting is small and as he needs glasses, it was implied that it was the 2nd type read, an entirely "acceptable" item, which had been written down. This was not what several XII's, including I, with good eyes had seen, and even, had there been a mistake, it would not have been hundreds of them. As said, what FESer cares about such things, merely items to verify/correct/handle. They certainly attached no special significance to this.)

He then screamed that I and the other XII's had "of course talked and laughed about it" among ourselves and had "undoubtedly told this all over the ship".

Completely maniacal reactions, especially toward the best and most experienced C/Ses/Auditors in the world who had seen and done just about everything.

However, also typical MW/H reactions, mere pc dramatizations (pc's should not read their own folders).

He had also looked at tons of out lists, wrong items, unhandled drugs, as well as "discreditable" data (like is found in any pc folder), none of it of any significance to FESers, C/Ses, or auditors, except as items in need of handling, but of lots of significance to pc's, especially when wrongly, incompletely or not handled at all. (This pc had certainly never been handled. His altitude, apart from the lack of know how in earlier tech days, alone prevented any auditor to just go in there and even put his ruds in. An auditor he had selected once certainly never did. She caved in and I had to, as Examiner, handle that session at that time. This class VIII had been known as a weak auditor, yet he had chosen that individual, while he had had some super XII's available. It is not hard to guess who controlled the session!!)

There were, in the Solo folders, a lot of things personal to him. But who cared! He read it (data most probably long since forgotten as having been written down), got stirred up with the idea of "others knowing about it", etc.

Pc's should not read their own folders.
He was very angry and I confronted him, after which he said "What are you looking at me for!" When I said, "Well, Sir, seeing you trained me on TR's and how to run them, you could n't now expect me to break up". (Which was true.) He then quietened down and ordered me to cabin arrest.

The other XII's had not been around so I caught the brunt of all of this alone. His hitting had n't bothered me, he was an old man.

What I really minded was MSH's denying of having seen and written down these reads, thereby giving him umpty wrong items by denying reads which did occur and indicating reads which did n't. This with lists, many of which were 100's of pages long, and more, so already wrong enough without needing further inval of their meter reads!

Later that evening MSH came down to my cabin, kept coming in and out with different folders of his, showing the reads clear as day, and then "explaining" to me that these reads had been "old time F/N reactions" (see page 10, last para) and that I, as old timer and XII "should have known that".

My answer was that this might all be true but that I, as C/S, could not just surmise things and they had to be verified and handled, and the more she talked the more stubborn I became.

As Diana Hubbard also came to shout at me "I hate you", "I hate you", "I hate you", it was obvious that things would not become too easy.

David Mayo, Class X Trainee at the time, and not involved in the Project, was in the cabin next to mine and witnessed the MSH "explanations".

LRH somehow refused the truth of the folders, and my stubborness [sic] clinched the matter.

"Station Termination", my days were numbered.

It was interesting to see how many people suddenly "discovered" what an SP I had always been. Fallen, after years at the top, it did not take the undertakers long to dig the grave.

A slight goof by Quentin (then C/S) and myself a few days later (running a GF (technically a correct action!) on a wrongly handled experimental XDN pc) got me comm-eved and declared, etc. The C/S was not mentioned.
However, knowing what was in the folders, I did not give up the action planned and left the ship (with approval!) to get the Klingvalls and bring them back to complete the programme. I returned to Flag, without even knowing where it was, I spotted Flag's location in Oporto and on the dock got the Expulsion, signed by Norman Starkey. And that was that! But there still was an 8 feet stack of folderds [sec] which needed handling!

I left Portugal with $100 in my pocket, subsequently did well in the "wog" world, but had a very rough time with self struggle, like, "Is he senior to Truth?", "Does he really stand above the requirements of the Tech?", etc. Yet, I would always come back to the same conclusion that my decision would be the same again, regardless of "losing the Upper Levels, etc." (In fact, I lost nothing, as neither NOTS, nor OT 8 contained any mysteries for me, and I had already virtually completed OT 8 years before, as I discovered when getting the contents of what is known today as OT 8 at David Mayo's. It would have been quite an inval of the tech and my own ability, as well as a waste if, even having reached the very top of training, knowingness and know how, I still would not have been able to help myself.)

THE FOLDERS: What happened to them?

When David Mayo came to salvage LRH years later....David never saw these folders. The tech of NOTS was developed, great, but the 8 feet stack of tens of thousands of pages of GROSS OUT TECH was never seen by David or anybody else again! NOBODY SAW THESE FOLDERS AGAIN. This is what David told me the 1st night I saw him again in Santa Barbara in 1983.

Yet I know what is in all of these folders and what he lived and worked over the top of.

It sure was n't that David could n't have run the XII programme, as he could have, it was that he just was n't given access to these folders (this latter statement is my opinion only, but I can see no other explanation).

One ought to realise the potential power of only one wrongly handled item like an engram or a list, let alone OUT Upper Level Solo Lists and a continuance of never looked at and handled out ruds!"
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
It would be, if we assume that Hubbard was an entirely cynical conman. Thing is - I don't think that he was that. Looking at the evidence, I think he honestly believed in a large part of his own nonsense, BTs and postulates and all. I don't think he ever fully deprogrammed himself out of Crowley's cult-thinking. That's where the postulates, "being at cause" and magical thinking comes from.
I also think he honestly believed that scientology does help a lot of people get through their mental issues. He probably thought it helped his own mental issues.
At the same time he made a lot of stuff up entirely and exclusively for the selfish purpose of controlling people, getting rich or evading the law.
I'm not saying he was a good guy, but I also don't think he was just a ruthless cynical exploiter. Dave probably is just that.

But that's just my own interpretation based on what I read. I didn't know Hubbard personally.


I really don't care what he believed or why ... I'm just looking at the stark facts and the facts are clear. He could've believed in goblins living in his freezer if he wanted to without dragging thousands of young and naïve people into his delusions and potentially wrecking their lives.

He knew exactly what he was doing, he was making money for himself and enjoying the game that was developing around him, it may have got out of hand but he could've jumped off the bus at any point in the early days and the cult would've collapsed.

I've wondered over the years if some of us justify his appalling behaviour because we were sucked into it and it makes us feel better (I don't mean people like you Kara, I know you were a generational scientologist). I also sometimes feel that because we accepted everything he threw at us we became immune to the reality of what he was really doing and to a degree still are ... but looking back without rancour is probably best for our collective BP and that is what I choose to do.

I honestly have very few regrets but any I do have are related to my children. Their lives would have been so much more fun when they were little if I hadn't been in the position I found myself in as a parent, but I did have the sense to leave the SO prior to having them, so there is that.

:byefly:
 

programmer_guy

True ex-Scientologist
It would be, if we assume that Hubbard was an entirely cynical conman. Thing is - I don't think that he was that. Looking at the evidence, I think he honestly believed in a large part of his own nonsense, BTs and postulates and all. I don't think he ever fully deprogrammed himself out of Crowley's cult-thinking. That's where the postulates, "being at cause" and magical thinking comes from.
I also think he honestly believed that scientology does help a lot of people get through their mental issues. He probably thought it helped his own mental issues.
At the same time he made a lot of stuff up entirely and exclusively for the selfish purpose of controlling people, getting rich or evading the law. I

I'm not saying he was a good guy, but I also don't think he was just a ruthless cynical exploiter. Dave probably is just that.

But that's just my own interpretation based on what I read. I didn't know Hubbard personally.
Yes, I think that Hubbard had narcissistic personality disorder and his paranoid schizophrenia was getting worse over many years.
But I think that he really did believe in "the tech" (pseudo-science) that he created.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I really don't care what he believed or why ... I'm just looking at the stark facts and the facts are clear. He could've believed in goblins living in his freezer if he wanted to without dragging thousands of young and naïve people into his delusions and potentially wrecking their lives.

He knew exactly what he was doing, he was making money for himself and enjoying the game that was developing around him, it may have got out of hand but he could've jumped off the bus at any point in the early days and the cult would've collapsed.

I've wondered over the years if some of us justify his appalling behaviour because we were sucked into it and it makes us feel better (I don't mean people like you Kara, I know you were a generational scientologist). I also sometimes feel that because we accepted everything he threw at us we became immune to the reality of what he was really doing and to a degree still are ... but looking back without rancour is probably best for our collective BP and that is what I choose to do.

I honestly have very few regrets but any I do have are related to my children. Their lives would have been so much more fun when they were little if I hadn't been in the position I found myself in as a parent, but I did have the sense to leave the SO prior to having them, so there is that.

:byefly:
.

Agreed!

For those who simply cannot figure out what Hubbard was thinking/believing, well that's what can accurately be referred to as a BLIND SPOT.

Once someone has left the cult and has access to the internet, they can cure all their blink spots with astonishing speed simply by clicking and reading about what Hubbard REALLY said/did.

My favorite example (amongst the tens of thousands) is the 1958 Congress Lecture where Hubbard confessed that DMSMH does not produce a Clear. So what did he do about the massive consumer fraud he had perpetrated?

Did he refund everyone's money who bought DMSMH and his training courses and Dianetic auditing sessions? Nope.

Did he offer anyone a partial refund or at least a credit toward his "new & improved" new techniques to go Clear? Nope.

Did he at least edit and publish a corrected version of the book DMSHM? Nope.

Did he have the decency to print up a list of errata and send that sheet to everyone who ever bought the book? Nope.

Did he at least insert the errata sheet into books he was currently selling to new customers? Nope.

Did he change the courses? Nope.

Did he do something the following year to fix it? Nope.

Did he do anything at all from 1958 to 1986 to rectify the monumental misrepresentations that DMSMH was making that one could easily go clear in "20 hours of processing" for free at home with a friend? Nope.

Did anyone in Hubbard worldwide organization make any changes in the fraudulent representations inside of the book they were selling from 1986 to 2021? Nope.

Can someone walk into any Scientology bookstore in the world right now and buy the fraudulent book that Hubbard and Scientology management know does not produce a Clear? Sure.

And what will happen if you point out to Scientologists that DMSMH does not produce a Clear?

ANSWER: You will be declared SP.

REASON: Because DMSMH 100% produces a Clear, Ron said that. And only an SP would try to sabotage planetary clearing, because they are terrified of people becoming big beings with magical superpowers. Don't worry. It's Scientology—it doesn't have to make sense.

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PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
But it is pure demonic evil to imprison as many people as possible mentally, spiritually and physically and just about everything hubbard did was intended to do one of those things and eventually all three.

Apart from the horrendous things already mentioned by HH above there are the common or garden acts which that man committed and imposed on his followers daily.

*The constant exhaustion and threats hanging over staff all the time, a very deliberate act to make people subservient.
*Working people night and day and making them beg (via CSW) for any time off to see their families, often to get knocked back.
*Separating people permanently from their families and loved ones.
*Ridiculous often unreachable stats.
*Relationship interference and eventual banning of any relationships unless married which more or less forced people to choose often unsuitable partners.
*Billion year contracts!
*Ensuring real friendships could not be created or endure, due to trust issues.
*Freeloader bills ... seriously!
*The no children rule ... which admittedly was an improvement on allowing children and then treating them appallingly in his vile nursery's but that wasn't the reason children in the SO were cancelled, it was because at least one child (that I know of specifically) DIED while under the care of his nursery staff and any bad PR was unwanted.
*Making honest communication impossible.
*The cost of services putting stress on people that is unimaginable but sending the regges in to get more more more and then more.
*Creating an RPF ... an RPF! A system set up purely to degrade and denigrate but dressed up as rehabilitation.
*Endless policy's that read like something the Gestapo could have written.
*Conditions formulas.
*Paying people a pittance if they were paid anything at all, when working on staff.
*Creating an HCO with "ethics officers" to keep us all under control 24/7.
*Surrounding himself by the young, dressing them like idiots and having them wait on him hand, foot and finger.
*Dumping Mary Sue when she was hauled off to jail for doing his bidding re snow white.
*Treating his own children like hostages ... treating everyone he had anything to do with like a hostage.
*Creating a GO (later OSA) ... a worldwide Mafia wannabe styled organisation of amateur thugs put there purely to scare people who may have blinked the wrong way or (heaven forbid) voiced something negative about his religion (lol) cult.

We could go on forever and we could argue precise psychiatric labels forever too and I know you already know all of this and more, so how you can come to the conclusion that he was neither a sadist nor a psychopath is beyond belief. I don't like labelling people but we are talking about hubbard and by just a few of his actions he was the very definition of both ... he was completely unburdened by any sense of appropriateness or decency where other people, their children and their lives in general were concerned. People were just toys for him to play with, break and fling into the trash when they were no longer wanted but only after he had wrung every cent and every ounce of energy from them.

Miscavige is just a tacky copy of hubbard, possibly even nastier, but let's not forget that he was brought up in hubbards scientology, that would have been where he learned to be the little shit that he is ... but hubbard was the original, he made abnormal behaviour normal for whack jobs like miscavige to follow.

:confused:
Thanks very much for that post. So you're saying he was definitely not on the list for consideration as "Mankind's Greatest Friend" ?

:D
 
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