Let's talk about people who spent time in the hole...

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
I recently found Rinder's blog post about it at The Hole: A List of Prisoners where he has a list of names of people who were there.

When I was still inside, I was not aware the hole existed - you would think I of all people should know, but nope. I mean I knew there was a purge going on at the Int base (I had a family member who was posted there), but I thought its just people getting assigned lower conditions and being shipped off to unglamorous posts.

After leaving scientology, I learned about the hole but was still under the impression that I did not closely work with anyone sent there. But after reading Rinder's list, to my surprise, I found a few. I wonder if anyone knows a bit more about some of them?

First Julia Delderfield. She had been at one point my equivalent at CMO Gold. So of course I did deal with her many times, even though I frankly have to admit my own opinion about her was not very high at the time. I did not feel that she is competent and smart enough to survive at that post, my team would crack jokes about her and what she must have done to get that post. But I digress... nevertheless, we did interact quite a lot.

Now I am having this very, very weird feeling... would it be possible that I worked with her WHILE she was in the hole? I know for a fact some people were taken in and out of the hole to do some work outside while pretending they are perfectly fine (Rinder case in point). I'm rather disturbed by the fact that its possible that Julia might have been driven in and out of the hole just to have some "boardroom conference" with me, Star and Justin.

Does anyone know what were the precise dates when Julia in the hole? Or at least the year?



I know, this is a minor thing. But its gonna bug me, I'd really like to know.
 
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As a never-in, I'd like to know this too. AIUI some people were regularly shuttled in and out of The Hole as and when Miscavige needed them - for example, according to Rinder, Marc Yager was often released in order to work on event videos, as he apparently had a knack for coming up with those insane statistics (e.g. 'if you laid every course completion this year end-to-end, it would go from the Earth to Saturn' and similar).

Perhaps not completely relevant, but a commenter on Rinder's blog once said that on one occasion, Miscavige released someone from The Hole by making him take his shoes and socks off, looking at his toes, then sending him on his way! On another occasion, after the musical chairs game, Miscavige asked if anyone thought they deserved to be released. Marc Headley was the only person who spoke up: he rattled off a bunch of reasons as to why, and the Great Leader personally allowed Marc to leave. See, Dave can be kind when he wants to be(!)

On that note, I'd like to know exactly how The Hole worked - obviously the main activity was the forced confessions, and occasionally they'd be made to shovel shit or similar, but was it literally just Fight Club nearly every day for five years or so, or did they sometimes do other work? When did they get to sleep? Were they literally fed slop three times a day every day for those years?
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
Greetings and Hello to PartTimeSp.
As a never-in, I'd like to know this too. AIUI some people were regularly shuttled in and out of The Hole as and when Miscavige needed them - for example, according to Rinder, Marc Yager was often released in order to work on event videos, as he apparently had a knack for coming up with those insane statistics (e.g. 'if you laid every course completion this year end-to-end, it would go from the Earth to Saturn' and similar).

Perhaps not completely relevant, but a commenter on Rinder's blog once said that on one occasion, Miscavige released someone from The Hole by making him take his shoes and socks off, looking at his toes, then sending him on his way! On another occasion, after the musical chairs game, Miscavige asked if anyone thought they deserved to be released. Marc Headley was the only person who spoke up: he rattled off a bunch of reasons as to why, and the Great Leader personally allowed Marc to leave. See, Dave can be kind when he wants to be(!)

On that note, I'd like to know exactly how The Hole worked - obviously the main activity was the forced confessions, and occasionally they'd be made to shovel shit or similar, but was it literally just Fight Club nearly every day for five years or so, or did they sometimes do other work? When did they get to sleep? Were they literally fed slop three times a day every day for those years?
In this video, Mike Rinder describes Life in the Hole.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
In this video, Mike Rinder describes Life in the Hole.
I mean that's one of the reasons I brought Julia up. At the time I was not her fan and my frank impression was that she was scatterbrained and couldn't get things done on time or done properly...

And knowing what I know about the hole, I wonder: was all these "faults" just something caused by living in these piss-poor conditions? Was I unwittingly been blaming her for being just another sad soul locked there?

One part of my brain s saying: "Nah us guys weren't important enough to have someone like Julia being carted in and out of the hole just to have some meeting with us".

But the other part of my brain wants to be sure that I'm not just trying to rationalize myself out of guilt for being ignorant about the hole's existence.
 
Being bored at home due to the lockdown, I thought I'd try and find out the ages of some of the people who were/are in The Hole/whatever The Hole eventually morphed into. Through some Googling, I managed to find the following (note: these are mostly educated guesses based on court declarations and so on):

Jenny Linson - 54 (born 1965/66?)
Marc Yager - 57 (born 1963?)
Russ Bellin - 60 (born 1959/60)
Ray Mithoff - 68 (born 1951?)
Wendell Reynolds - 71 (born 1948?)
Mark Ingber - 73 (born 1946/7)
Norman Starkey - 76 (born 1943?)
Heber Jentzsch - 84 (born 1935)

There is also a website I found (one of those background check sites) that has details of many SO/ex-SO people's ages and addresses; I won't link to it as it shows the current home addresses of some ex-SO people, and I don't particularly wish to invade anyone's privacy.

Anyway, the reason I point this out is to show just how old many of these people are, and how they're still being controlled at their ages, when they should be enjoying retirement and taking it easy - not still being slave driven by Miscavige and marched everywhere by his minions.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
I don't know how young was Julia, but she was young when she came and got the post. In fact I think most of us thought she was too young and too inexperienced for that post. And none of us was very old at the time either.
 
I don't know how young was Julia, but she was young when she came and got the post. In fact I think most of us thought she was too young and too inexperienced for that post. And none of us was very old at the time either.
The website I found with their ages on said that she is about 40 now, so that would make sense. What years did you deal with her? It's horrible to think that she might have spent some of the best years of her life in The Hole.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
The website I found with their ages on said that she is about 40 now, so that would make sense. What years did you deal with her? It's horrible to think that she might have spent some of the best years of her life in The Hole.
I dealt with her roughly 2006-2007. I was then under the impression that she was in her early 20s something like 23, but maybe she looked a few years younger than she was.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
Makes sense. Was she brought up in Scientology, by any chance?
I think so, but I did not know her in a more personal way. You know how it is at that level - its all "work! work! work! work!". We did not talk about our lives, mostly just about the endless amount of tasks and projects that have to be done the day before yesterday.

I think with the CMO it was even more a "whack-a-mole" game than what we had. By the time she got one super-urgent-big-news thing done, another popped up.

EDIT: I tried to recall this part and now I seem to remember the last name "Delderfield " come up more than just her. So there must have been some other relatives of her involved. If it was her parents or someone she brought into the cult - I don't remember.
 
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Karakorum

supressively reasonable
Other people from the list: Tammy Lundeen. I knew her a bit, she was also 2nd gen.
I got to know her dad far, far better from the time I was at PAC... hated every minute of it, guy was toxic even by scn standards. I felt sorry for Tammy once I got to know him. There were several people I had regular shouting matches with: Jon was one of them :/

Wendell and Ellen Reynolds - two of the people I got to know quite well despite them not knowing me at all (they came up in several investigations, I remember going through the files). There's some other people on that list that we had checked back in the day, but I'm not gonna give any names cause they are out and I do not want to intrude on their privacy. They are out, good luck to them.
 
I think so, but I did not know her in a more personal way. You know how it is at that level - its all "work! work! work! work!". We did not talk about our lives, mostly just about the endless amount of tasks and projects that have to be done the day before yesterday.

I think with the CMO it was even more a "whack-a-mole" game than what we had. By the time she got one super-urgent-big-news thing done, another popped up.

EDIT: I tried to recall this part and now I seem to remember the last name "Delderfield " come up more than just her. So there must have been some other relatives of her involved. If it was her parents or someone she brought into the cult - I don't remember.
Just found this from Tony Ortega's 2012 article about the prisoners of The Hole, which seemingly corroborates your experiences with her:

Julia Delderfield CMO Gold — “She was the Director of Inspections & Reports for CMO Int (responsible for the ethics and investigations of all Int executives). Boots way too big for her. She was a young girl from Europe.”
There was also this that Tony had to say:
...some were held only days, some were held for years, and some, we believe, are still spending their days in the gulag.
So it's possible that Julia might have only spent a short amount of time in The Hole.
 
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Lee #28

Well-known member
Above is all interesting!

Does the Hole still exist.....?

Are there still SO in the Hole today? I assume some are....

Will some live in the Hole until the day they die?
 
Above is all interesting!

Does the Hole still exist.....?

Are there still SO in the Hole today? I assume some are....

Will some live in the Hole until the day they die?
There are no doubt people here who know better than I do, but my understanding is that there is still a Hole of sorts, but in a different form. After the Hole's existence was made public in the Truth Rundown series back in 2009, conditions in there improved dramatically; a small group of 'Holees' were apparently moved to work in Building 50, I guess so Miscavige could make out it wasn't just his personal palace. Anyway, these days they are apparently allowed to sleep in proper beds in one of the Berthing buildings, eat in the mess hall and study like the rest of the Int staff. However they are still reportedly marched two abreast from place to place; there is apparently also a security guard posted outside the building they sleep in, and the corridors all have CCTV cameras in them.

Valerie Haney said on her episode of Aftermath that the number of people in the Hole had dwindled to about 30 when she left in late 2016: the likes of Marc Yager, Heber Jentzsch and Guillaume Lesevre were still 'members' of the Hole; though supposedly they are no longer based in the double-wide trailers.
 
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Karakorum

supressively reasonable
Just found this from Tony Ortega's 2012 article about the prisoners of The Hole, which seemingly corroborates your experiences with her:
Julia Delderfield
CMO Gold — “She was the Director of Inspections & Reports for CMO Int (responsible for the ethics and investigations of all Int executives). Boots way too big for her. She was a young girl from Europe.”
That's exactly correct, Julia was not from the US. I don't know who was the source for this statement (wasn't me), but Tony usually has good sources. :thumbsup:

There was also this that Tony had to say:
...some were held only days, some were held for years, and some, we believe, are still spending their days in the gulag.
So it's possible that Julia might have only spent a short amount of time in The Hole.
That's a great piece of info to point out. I have assumed people that got thrown there would spend months at least, but seems this was not always the case. If the hole had a"short hike" option, then I can see that6 happen with Julia very easily once some of her big cases failed or got delayed.
I mean let's be honest - some of her "targets for today" were powerful people very high in the apparatus, with years of experience and far better connections than she herself ever had. She had to run cases on them and it was playing with fire.

I vividly remember one instance when she was tasked with a case on one such very influential woman. When I heard who the mark is I was like: "Wow, nope! That case is a tar baby if I ever seen one." Julia wanted to ask us for support and requested to borrow a figurante. My reply was pretty much: "Sorry, but don't you think this mountain is a bit too high for us continentals?! How are you gonna get the figurante into the Int base in any believable manner on such short notice without raising suspicions? I'm sorry, I'm not getting any of my guys involved in this mess without a request going through official channels". Julia got upset and from what I gathered later that case did not go well. I can totally see something like that case landing her in the hole for a "short hike".
 
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That's exactly correct, Julia was not from the US. I don't know who was the source for this statement (wasn't me), but Tony usually has good sources. :thumbsup:
It was Amy Scobee.

That's a great piece of info to point out. I have assumed people that got thrown there would spend months at least, but seems this was not always the case. If the hole had a"short hike" option, then I can see that6 happen with Julia very easily once some of her big cases failed or got delayed.
I mean let's be honest - some of her "targets for today" were powerful people very high in the apparatus, with years of experience and far better connections than she herself ever had. She had to run cases on them and it was playing with fire.

I vividly remember one instance when she was tasked with a case on one such very influential woman. When I heard who the mark is I was like: "Wow, nope! That case is a tar baby if I ever seen one." Julia wanted to ask us for support and requested to borrow a figurante. My reply was pretty much: "Sorry, but don't you think this mointain is a bit too high for us continentals?! How are you gonna get the figurante into the Int base in any believable manner on such short notice without raising suspicions? I'm sorry, I'm not getting any of my guys involved in this mess without a request going through official channels". Julia got upset and from what I gathered later that case did not go well. I can totally see something like that case landing her in the hole for a "short hike".
Yes, I could imagine something going wrong and Julia being made a scapegoat for it. FWIW, I believe the only person who could order someone to or from The Hole was Miscavige.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
It was Amy Scobee.



Yes, I could imagine something going wrong and Julia being made a scapegoat for it. FWIW, I believe the only person who could order someone to or from The Hole was Miscavige.
Well, in that specific case the mark was so influential that the one behind the case must have been Dave, or at least Marc.

Wait, this would sound grand: "Marc provided the mark. Marc will mark the mark. Marc doesn't like the mark." :D
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
Yes, I could imagine something going wrong and Julia being made a scapegoat for it. FWIW, I believe the only person who could order someone to or from The Hole was Miscavige.
Ok, whenever I have to mention the name of a real person (living, dead, in or out), I hesitate, because everything has consequences and I do not want to cause trouble. The clarity of my posts may suffer and it is a balancing act.

I thought about this thing long enough and I have decided to release the name of the 'mark' I mentioned previously with regards to the case that I think might have gotten Julia in a lot of trouble.

The mark was none other than Marion Pouw. Julia was tasked with an investigation into Marion.

I think it is now clear why I recoiled from that case and wanted to have absolutely nothing to do with it unless ordered to. I did not want to put any of my guys on the line. I was convinced that nothing good would come of that case.
Maybe there was more that I did not know about. But if Julia landed at the hole during the time I dealt with her, I'd reckon the Pouw case sounds like the most likely cause. At least from the stuff I knew about.


Coincidentally, I see that according to Mike's list Marion was also a visitor to the hole. I guess that just goes to show how crazy Int base was. The investigator and the investigated end up locked in the same jail. Its like the french revolution "Robespierre executing the executioner of Paris":




Frankly, this also makes me wonder: How did people in the hole react to see Julia there? Surely there must have been some that went there because of Julia's findings or some who were put through the ethics alligator by her. I wonder if anyone tried to beat her up "having the opportunity to do so"?
I know sure as heck that there was a list of people who would gladly beat the crap out of me if they got locked up with me and could do it knowing they can get away with it. I can't imagine that it would be much different for Julia. Prisoners at the hole were allowed to beat one another up if I recall correctly.

Geez, that's just all crazy stuff beyond my level of crazy. To think I spent so much time working within this system... :screwy:
 
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Frankly, this also makes me wonder: How did people in the hole react to see Julia there? Surely there must have been some that went there because of Julia's findings or some who were put through the ethics alligator by her. I wonder if anyone tried to beat her up "having the opportunity to do so"?
I know sure as heck that there was a list of people who would gladly beat the crap out of me if they got locked up with me and could do it knowing they can get away with it. I can't imagine that it would be much different for Julia. Prisoners at the hole were allowed to beat one another up if I recall correctly.

Geez, that's just all crazy stuff beyond my level of crazy. To think I spent so much time working within this system... :screwy:
AIUI, not just allowed, but encouraged. Mike Rinder has said on several occasions (including in the video posted above by Karen) that prisoners in The Hole were encouraged to literally beat confessions out of one another.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
AIUI, not just allowed, but encouraged. Mike Rinder has said on several occasions (including in the video posted above by Karen) that prisoners in The Hole were encouraged to literally beat confessions out of one another.
In some sense I think for Mike it would be less of a deal than for Julia. The people he really messed with were outside the CoS. Some of the people that Julia messed with would likely be in there with her.
 
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