Lee Spewing again....

Dotey OT

We Finally Got a Puppy!
As staff in an org, I had to make enough money moonlighting to make ends meet and pay child support. Oh yeah, I got divorced because of the cult. So I would make maybe $2,000 a year, and have to moonlight evenings and weekends to pay for a place to live, food, gas and child support.

Weekends, I was moonlighting mostly. Except for event weekends, which was about eight or ten weeks of the year. Oh, if the stats were down, who knows. Or if I had a cram. Or study program. Or ethics program. Or if the ED had an itch to make everyone's life hell. Or there were S.O. in town to straighten up the org.

I had a young child that I would see only on weekends. If I could get CSW approved.
 
D

Deleted member 51

Guest
Hi Sheila. Liked you reply. I'm not complaining or anything....just airing some thoughts..

Another point is there are real life posts of SO escaping.....making plans of when to get away....perhaps stashing some cloths. When the guards are not as watchful.....how to get away..

Where as Public didn't really have those kind of physically hemmed in or being watched sort of problems. As a Public.....one went to Course...and then left and went home. Nothing really kept a Public from leaving. Except of course...having drank the cool aid and not wanting to leave. Rather wanting to continue on.

But my point is there is a big difference there. What that might exactly be....I don't know.

Public were not really worried about a Blow Drill...or Blow Team coming to get them..... (for the most part)...like SO.

Except perhaps Celebs. I use to see Kristie Alley around the Complex....and she did have a Handler or 2 always close by. I saw them. I assumed they were SO.
That's all very true. The Sea Org were very controlled and abused regularly. It was part of the set-up. We were poor and proud to dedicate our lives, health and sanity to the expansion of Scientology. Crazy, right?

But the public were very controlled, too, especially once they were about to start or on OT levels. The idea that they were independent and free was something of a mirage. They worked hard to earn money for their Bridge and gave it over. They allowed the orgs to control their relationships, their businesses and different aspects of their lives. This is a post I wrote on the original exscn when my memories of that time in the 80s came back in a rush. You were there around then. :yes: It was one of my better posts that I couldn't remember well enough now to ever write again:
When I was the Dir I&R AOLA, I hated that public actually waited in line to see the Public MAA (Ethics Officer) because someone in the org sent them.

They friggin' WAITED IN LINE because some org staff member sent them to be disciplined.
:duh:
These were public! I mean
:wtf:


Late for course, always at least a half dozen or so of those. Upset someone wrote a KR or Things That Shouldn't Be on them, another half dozen. Sent to the MAA by the C/S because they tattled on themselves or needed security clearances. Or sent to the MAA because they had a real life problem and since there are no real life problems in the scientology bubble world (scientologists believe all problems are only in their mind), the C/S labeled them PTS. Off to the MAA they went.

They lined the hallways, 20-30 of them, as soon as we got back from dinner.

I never got used to it. These people were paying a lot of money and taking time out of their lives to do scn and they got treated like first graders. Worse, even, because there was no waiting room, no chairs. I couldn't stand seeing grown adults responding like this. I hated it.

Mike Howson would dive into his office with someone important that actually needed real help for the first 45 min and leave me with the crowd.

20 second average conversations in the hallway for the late to course ones and off they go. Moronic. Like playing principal. They should have known the drill well enough to forge a signature and yet nobody ever did it. Weird.

Upset about KRs. 5 min each. Filed with a yawn, torn up or (rarely) ask them to come in together with the person to sort it out. Nearly always the Public KRs were just someone angry at someone else over something stupid and just wanted to get it off their chest. Buy a diary, people!

Ah, most of the line gone. Now the PTSes with the hangdog expressions and the ones the C/S sent who tattled on themselves. Mike is out of his office. Big grin from Mike. ''Ah, I see the line isn't so long anymore." Lol. Same routine, similar comment every day. ho ho ho

Then the PTSes who really aren't PTS getting handlings that really aren't PTS handlings. (Translation: Talking to folks about how to get on top of their real life problems). Then the 'Non-Actionable' KRs and the 'Actionable' KRs, nearly all about things nobody should ever have to say to a stranger or about having doubts about scientology. Keeping management happy and the public in line. Why couldn't we just tell them to say 5 Hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers and they were forgiven, sins erased, no report or record?

We had a terrific department, apparently did a great job. The part that was actually helpful or necessary could have taken no more than ten hours a week if these poor folks hadn't been put on the scn hamster wheel to overanalyze everything and jump when commanded.

I hated it.
What I hated in scientology !
 
O

Out Ethics

Guest
It's a good thread. I think you'll like it.

Personally, I did not look down on public when I was a staff member or during my one year in the Sea Org. If anything there were times I wished I was a public, as they were getting auditing and training unlike myself.

I did consider though that staff and S.O. were taking more responsibility as Hubbard harped on that, writing stuff like "you can't go full OT until you take full responsibility across the dynamics" or some other similar BS. But I never looked down on the public like they were a bunch of DB's or anything like that.
I think you are an exception. Most of us did. Sea Org looked down on us.
It was a ladder of eliteness and power.
Wogs were at the bottom, then public, then staff, then Sea Org and then upper management and at the top is COB.
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
That's all very true. The Sea Org were very controlled and abused regularly. It was part of the set-up. We were poor and proud to dedicate our lives, health and sanity to the expansion of Scientology. Crazy, right?

But the public were very controlled, too, especially once they were about to start or on OT levels. The idea that they were independent and free was something of a mirage. They worked hard to earn money for their Bridge and gave it over. They allowed the orgs to control their relationships, their businesses and different aspects of their lives. This is a post I wrote on the original exscn when my memories of that time in the 80s came back in a rush. You were there around then. :yes: It was one of my better posts that I couldn't remember well enough now to ever write again:

What I hated in scientology !

Yes, very true. Public were controlled. Yes, Public (at least my experience...) did give up most things....to make APs (advanced payments) and be on course....and attend events...and ...and ....and.

I was aware of some that did have businesses....and they were controlled. Plus there was WISE....

So, yea, Public was controlled.

But, I don't think there was the idea or threat that a public could be put into a solitary confinement situation....or guarded..

But....exceptions to that too. I'm sure some were.

Just the fact that many Public were so out of touch with the real world....that they had to work for Scientologist owned Companies....as they could get hired there.... and perhaps not get hired in the real world due to years of no real-world work track records.....
 

freethinker

Controversial
Hilarious! A short Flag Order on competence with a big typo ("assure" instead of "assume").
As it stands LRH violated that policy.
 

The_Fixer

Well-known member
Back in 77-78 (circa), a mission came to Auckland Org. It consisted of two SO crew, Albert Megraw (sp?) and a lady named Vicky who stayed with us in our unit, she took my room for her stay). I think, at least, her name was Vicky and I can't recall her surname. She was married then.

My flatmate at the time was Nick Alexander who was GO staff. I assume she stayed with us because of Nick's position in the Org.

I don't recall what position either person held, if I ever even knew. Albert seemed to be a decent enough guy, although very busy. Never got much chance to chat with him in any meaningful way. He actually signed me up for SO, but didn't recruit me. I offered to join up. but never actually went to SO as I left the church not all that much later.

If they had communicated with us more, I think they would have gotten more recruits. One of our crew, Rangi was just 16 when he signed up. But because he was so young, Albert got him to do a few other things to possibly test his commitment. IIRC, Rangi had to sign in front of a Justice of the Peace. I also heard Albert got into a bit of trouble over that, but I don't know much more than that. I wonder if Rangi ever went to SO in the end.

Vicky was a little different. She seemed to be a little of the roll your eyes type at everyone, even though she could be reasonably friendly at times. But that girl could sleep. Every spare moment was in bed snoozing....

It was my only contact with SO crew. They did seem to be quite busy and separate from us. Not sure if they were looking down on us as such, but they were from another planet that I could see. After I signed up for SO, I started having some reservations as I saw more of them. Something was off about them. Not that they were bad people, just giving off an air of something wasn't quite right. I went off on a Leave of Absence not much longer after that to a paying job some 200 kms away and never went back.

Probably one of the smarter things I ever did, even if it wasn't a conscious thing.

As for the hierarchy thing one one level looking down on the other, I could envision that. It was the OT's that seemed to keep their distance from us more than anyone else.
 

Mockingbird

Well-known member
TL/DR

In a nutshell.....what I'm saying is that Scientology Staff / SO and Cult Public had entirely different experiences IMO...

And that deserves exploring.
I think this was intentional on the part of Ronald Hubbard.

The Scientology Tone Scale as Ron Hubbard's Game

Science of Survival has the tone scale as its central theme.

Let's LOOK at what Hubbard said about the tone scale. Here are several quotes from Hubbard

Philadelphia Doctorate Course lecture tape numbered 39 The games maker tape 1952

"The MEST universe would have you believe this is the only game there is anyplace in the whole of anything. That’s not true! Not even vaguely true."

"Games are going on with all kinds of rules, terrific interest levels and so forth. All right, I’m going to read off for you this paper just so we’ve got it on the tape. How many minutes we got? – five minutes. That’s plenty."

"Now we get The rules of games are as follows: Limitations on self and others, obedience to rules, unconsciousness of rules to add reality – we pretend the rules are real."

"ARC with others to play. Pain as a penalty which will be obeyed – you have to have a penalty that will be obeyed. Otherwise, nobody will stick with the rules."

"Agreement to rules and penalties is necessary to continue a game. And boy, are they!
Deterioration of a game until no game – cycle of action shows you the whole game is an object with no action."

"You know, the… the… the wienie finally becomes everything there is, and there is no action even to get the wienie."

"Work is admission of inability to play – if you have to work, you can’t play, obvious. They really yap about that here."

"A game of complexity and levels – the Tone Scale is such a game. It’s just a map of MEST universe games."

"Peculiarity or liability of a maker of game, people attempting to play the game of Maker of Games– it’s a game itself. Your big capitalista or commissar will do that."

"The game called Maker of Games results in No Game. And the game called Unmaking Games results in a game. 8008.“

"There’s a game called freedom, which is what you’re playing right at this minute.
And Games contain trickery and misdirection to win – your 180 degree vector of Have and Agree."

"The prize of winning is making a new game– what do you know? Or permitting a new game to be made or making it possible for a new game to be played. Those are all prizes, and that’s all the prizes there are. "

"The necessity – oh, of course, there’s these gimmicks, these wienies and so forth. But everybody just knows that they’re spurious as hell. Uh… The necessity to have a new game coded before one ends the old game.“ Otherwise, everyone becomes a maker of games with no game."

"Now, The value of pieces. Ownership of pieces may be also the ownership of players. And the difference between players and pieces, and the difficulty of pieces becoming players“

"boy, when a piece becomes a player, there’s really a hell of an upset in the game; it’ll just blow. Oh, the quarterback walks out of the football game and all of a sudden starts to run the whole football game, and nobody can tell him No. That football game’s dead."

"Now… so you’ve got to hide the rules from the pieces, otherwise this is going to happen."

"Now the caste system of game consist of this: The Maker of Games, he has no rules, he runs by no rules."

"The player of the games, rules known but he obeys them. And the assistant players merely obey the players. And the pieces obey rules as dictated by players, but they don’t know the rules.“

"And then, what do you know. There’s broken pieces, and they aren’t even in the game, but they’re still in the game."

"And they’re in a terrible maybe: Am I in the game or am I not in the game? Now, How to make a piece. This is how to make a piece: First, deny there is a game. Second, hide the rules from them. Three, give them all penalties and no wins. Four, remove all goals–. Enforce them… their playing. Inhibit their enjoying. Make them look like but forbid their being like players“

"– look like God but uh… you can’t be God."

"To make a piece continue to be a piece, permit it to associate only with pieces and deny the existence of players.“

"Never let the pieces find out that there are players. Now out of these you’re going to get games."

"Now here’s a process that has to do with the making of games, and all this process adds up to, is you just address to those factors which I just gave you, oh, run and change postulates and any creative process that you can think of and shift postulates around, you get a whole process."

"But remember, that up at the top of it there is a big postulate, There must be a game.
Therefore if you want to regain the Spirit of Play, people have got to unmake postulates they’ve made all along, saying, There mustn’t be a game. There mustn’t be a game. It can’t be a game. Don’t play with me. I mustn’t be played with. Life is serious. This isn’t a game. We’re playing for keeps. I’ll never get out of this,“

"and so forth. In other words, the postulates which they’ve made to convince themselves that these are the rules and the only rules that can be played, and these that I’ve just read off to you.
I’m going to have this typed and you can figure it out more or less as you want to. I could, of course, give you even further rundown on this, if you wanted me to, but it takes… takes a little while to do so. It’s actually the backbone of what we are doing. But let’s take a break." (TAPE ENDS) PDC tape 39 The games maker Ron Hubbard

Let's really look at what Hubbard told us. (Words bolded by me for emphasis)

"A game of complexity and levels – the Tone Scale is such a game. It’s just a map of MEST universe games."PDC tape 39 The games maker Ron Hubbard

Hubbard told us THE TONE SCALE IS SUCH A GAME.

"There’s a game called freedom, which is what you’re playing right at this minute.
And Games contain trickery and misdirection to win – your 180 degree vector of Have and Agree."PDC tape 39 The games maker Ron Hubbard

Hubbard told us several things here, all important.

Hubbard told us THERE'S A GAME CALLED FREEDOM, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE PLAYING RIGHT AT THIS MINUTE.

Hubbard told us GAMES CONTAIN TRICKERY AND MISDIRECTION TO WIN - YOUR 180 DEGREE VECTOR OF HAVE AND AGREE.

"Now, How to make a piece. This is how to make a piece: First, deny there is a game. Second, hide the rules from them. Three, give them all penalties and no wins. Four, remove all goals"

"Enforce them… their playing. Inhibit their enjoying. Make them look like but forbid their being like players“

"– look like God but uh… you can’t be God."

"To make a piece continue to be a piece, permit it to associate only with pieces and deny the existence of players.“

"Never let the pieces find out that there are players. Now out of these you’re going to get games."

"It’s actually the backbone of what we are doing. "

Hubbard told us FIRST, DENY THERE IS A GAME.

Hubbard told us SECOND, HIDE THE RULES FROM THEM.

Hubbard told us THREE, GIVE THEM ALL PENALTIES AND NO WINS.

Hubbard told us FOUR, REMOVE ALL GOALS.

Hubbard told us ENFORCE THEM...THEIR PLAYING.

Hubbard told us INHIBIT THEIR ENJOYING.

Hubbard told us MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE BUT FORBID THEIR BEING LIKE PLAYERS.

Hubbard told us LOOK LIKE GOD BUT UH...YOU CAN'T BE GOD.

Hubbard told us TO MAKE A PIECE CONTINUE TO BE A PIECE, PERMIT IT ONLY TO ASSOCIATE WITH PIECES AND DENY THE EXISTENCE OF PLAYERS.

Hubbard told us NEVER LET THE PIECES FIND OUT THERE ARE PLAYERS.

Hubbard told us IT'S ACTUALLY THE BACKBONE OF WHAT WE ARE DOING.

Scientology is now the game that has David Miscavige as the player.

Ron Hubbard was the games maker.

Here Hubbard laid it out - HIS game is built on TRICKERY and MISDIRECTION. He lied to people to put them into his caste system of pieces and broken pieces. He acted like God but knew he couldn't openly claim to be God because people who come right out and say that they literally are God aren't accepted or even worse are accepted as believing it without it being true.

Hubbard made many of his intentions clear here. He wanted to change the goals of people and to use processes (Scientology auditing) to do this.

Scientology has the records of this but we don't normally ever see the truth about Scientology separated from the lies.

Hubbard made it perfectly clear, but you have to do a lot of digging.

"Now here’s a process that has to do with the making of games, and all this process adds up to, is you just address to those factors which I just gave you, oh, run and change postulates and any creative process that you can think of and shift postulates around, you get a whole process." End quote
 

Mockingbird

Well-known member
I think Hubbard intended for he alone to be the gamesmaker and his closest allies, which became the Sea Org, to be the pieces in Scientology and to follow the rules but not know them and for many of them to be broken pieces.
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
I think Hubbard intended for he alone to be the gamesmaker and his closest allies, which became the Sea Org, to be the pieces in Scientology and to follow the rules but not know them and for many of them to be broken pieces.
Well to the directly above....and your longer post above.......I really think you are missing the big picture.

Certainly within Scientology....this could be claimed to be true....( but isn't IMO) ........

But, taking even a tiny view of the Real World and what is going on in even the smallest cranny of the real world, certainly it is not.

One just can't say that Hubbard was a gamemaker in any true sense....unless one circumscribes that claim to only that to which he had drawn people and that those people agreed to play his game....

But on a broader look at the world, this would have been ( even at its height of popularity ) but a tiny tiny slice of life.......and what goes on.
 

Mockingbird

Well-known member
Well to the directly above....and your longer post above.......I really think you are missing the big picture.

Certainly within Scientology....this could be claimed to be true....( but isn't IMO) ........

But, taking even a tiny view of the Real World and what is going on in even the smallest cranny of the real world, certainly it is not.

One just can't say that Hubbard was a gamemaker in any true sense....unless one circumscribes that claim to only that to which he had drawn people and that those people agreed to play his game....

But on a broader look at the world, this would have been ( even at its height of popularity ) but a tiny tiny slice of life.......and what goes on.
Hubbard's quotes support the claim that he considered himself a gamesmaker. Outside reality is a different issue. His self assigned idea was in his own mind.
 
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Lee #28

Well-known member
Hubbard's quotes support the claim that he considered himself a gamesmaker. Outside reality is a different issue. His self assigned told was in his own mind.
Didn't work out for him and the Apollo....
Didn't work out for him and Rhodesia...
Didn't work out for him in the States....

Edited: And currently....targeting a bunch of whales to give $ millions to the Cult ....is a sure admission of failure also.
 
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Mockingbird

Well-known member
Didn't work out for him and the Apollo....
Didn't work out for him and Rhodesia...
Didn't work out for him in the States....

Edited: And currently....targeting a bunch of whales to give $ millions to the Cult ....is a sure admission of failure also.
What a person thinks they are and what they actually are, especially in the case of someone stuck in a solipsistic reality, as Robert Jay Lifton described, can be entirely different things.
 

Dotey OT

We Finally Got a Puppy!
Didn't work out for him and the Apollo....
Didn't work out for him and Rhodesia...
Didn't work out for him in the States....

Edited: And currently....targeting a bunch of whales to give $ millions to the Cult ....is a sure admission of failure also.
Totally true. Aren't they really very far past the clearing the planet lie, so far that it would be appearant to more people?
 

Mockingbird

Well-known member
Totally true. Aren't they really very far past the clearing the planet lie, so far that it would be appearant to more people?
if we are talking about people in general, most people in general barely have heard of Scientology or have never heard of it. Of those who have I would say a vast majority have so little information on it they don't really understand it well.

If we are talking about people who joined Scientology as members at some point I think I saw an estimate that there are twenty to forty thousand members left and many ex members. There might be a few hundred thousand ex Scientologists around and most people end up rejecting it completely at some point after leaving.

Of the people still in Scientology maybe half or more (?) have given up on believing in the technology and either have nowhere else to go, if they are dependent on the Sea Org or Scientology relatives or employers and many don't want to get disconnected from their families, so a significant amount are under the radar and don't believe anymore.

Really, if you think about it, there might be only ten thousand or so people in the entire world who actually believe in Scientology and that's not a lot in a world of billions of people.
 
O

Out Ethics

Guest
I think Hubbard intended for he alone to be the gamesmaker and his closest allies, which became the Sea Org, to be the pieces in Scientology and to follow the rules but not know them and for many of them to be broken pieces.
L Ron Hubbard made a game called Scientology. The goal - to make a lot of money and get rich. Oh, and to have others make a lot of money for him so he could richer. Also, so he could be the rulah of the universe (his affirmations).
When I was in, playing the game, I kept thinking to myself, why am I dedicating my life to LRH's game? I want to live my own life and achieve my own goals. I knew there were 8 billion people on the planet and our Org cranked out a Clear every couple of years at best, while at the same time a few Clears and OT's would get regraded. I did the math. This was a totally hopeless goal, this clearing the planet business.
I never voiced this to anyone but now I am reaching for my own goals covertly.
A crazy foot note while discussing LRH Scientology game. An OT VIII told me that we were ALL broken pieces and that is why people did not really get better in Scientology, even if they went up the entire bridge. I thought to myself, this OT VIII is justifying why it did not work. I had enough sense left to look out around the world and see all sorts of people doing amazing things and creating beautiful lives for themselves and they had NO Scientology ever. Scientologists never could create beautiful lives because Scientology made them broken pieces by taking away their dreams, goals, freedom, money, self determinism and MEST.
 
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Mockingbird

Well-known member
L Ron Hubbard made a game called Scientology. The goal - to make a lot of money and get rich. Oh, and to have others make a lot of money for him so he could richer. Also, so he could be the rulah of the universe (his affirmations).
When I was in, playing the game, I kept thinking to myself, why am I dedicating my life to LRH's game? I want to live my own life and achieve my own goals. I knew there were 8 billion people on the planet and our Org cranked out a Clear every couple of years at best, while at the same time a few Clears and OT's would get regraded. I did the math. This was a totally hopeless goal, this clearing the planet business.
I never voiced this to anyone but now I am reaching for my own goals covertly.
A crazy foot note while discussing LRH Scientology game. An OT VIII told me that we were ALL broken pieces and that is why people did not really get better in Scientology, even if they went up the entire bridge. I thought to myself, this OT VIII is justifying why it did not work. I had enough sense left to look out around the world and see all sorts of people doing amazing things and creating beautiful lives for themselves and they had NO Scientology ever. Scientologists never could create beautiful lives because Scientology made them broken pieces by taking away their dreams, goals, freedom, money, self determinism and MEST.
[/QUOTE

Jon Atack has an article at the Underground Bunker on The Games Hubbard Played and he asks the question, if the people in Scientology are broken pieces then who broke them ?

Hubbard in another reference said forgive us if we are trying to make a world with broken straws. He broke them with abuse, confusion, deception and creating illusions to control people.

But he didn't take any responsibility for harming them.
 

Dotey OT

We Finally Got a Puppy!
L Ron Hubbard made a game called Scientology. The goal - to make a lot of money and get rich. Oh, and to have others make a lot of money for him so he could richer. Also, so he could be the rulah of the universe (his affirmations).
When I was in, playing the game, I kept thinking to myself, why am I dedicating my life to LRH's game? I want to live my own life and achieve my own goals. I knew there were 8 billion people on the planet and our Org cranked out a Clear every couple of years at best, while at the same time a few Clears and OT's would get regraded. I did the math. This was a totally hopeless goal, this clearing the planet business.
I never voiced this to anyone but now I am reaching for my own goals covertly.
A crazy foot note while discussing LRH Scientology game. An OT VIII told me that we were ALL broken pieces and that is why people did not really get better in Scientology, even if they went up the entire bridge. I thought to myself, this OT VIII is justifying why it did not work. I had enough sense left to look out around the world and see all sorts of people doing amazing things and creating beautiful lives for themselves and they had NO Scientology ever. Scientologists never could create beautiful lives because Scientology made them broken pieces by taking away their dreams, goals, freedom, money, self determinism and MEST.
I actually finally fucking saw, after years and years of evidence in my face and in my head, how vicious scientology in so many ways really is. I started off just thinking I didn't get why people got their heads chopped off. People in positions of power within the organization were taught this was an effective way of getting things done. It sometimes was the only way. I saw the ideas behind ethics, how ethics was a "personal thing", but you could hardly ever apply it to yourself without someone saying "your condition is lower than danger, do lowers!" How sec checks were used as punishment, and FPRD similarly. How money was the most important thing, and god forbid anything get in the way. How OT's did not behave as advertised, how clears did not behave as advertised. BUT YOU BETTER NOT VILIFY CLEARS AND OTS!!
 
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