Jim Jackson and I meet again

Karen#1

Well-known member
Jim Jackson and I go back a long ways together.

In the 1990s OSA INT put crosshairs on us and targeted us with daily, weekly monthly sec checks which we had to report to the HGB for. Meekly and obediently we would show up and pay and pay and pay for the *Intelligence* type questions, we were well conditioned to OBEY.

But the sec checks that deeply impacted Jim Jackson were the GANG BANG sec checks given him by Marty Rathbun. These are called GANG BANG because It is not done in the format of an auditor (counselor) and client (pc).

A GANG of people are wildly interrogating one guy. So it is 5-7 adversarial hostile against the victim being questioned. Marty Rathbun was insisting Jim Jackson was having sex with me and asked the question over and over thumping on the auditing table yelling and screaming.

It was a completely fake manufactured piece of nonsense but Marty would not let go. He was at times talking into a cell phone. Later Jim Jackson found out he was being "RUN" directly by David Miscavige who was was insisting that Jim Jackson *confess* that he was having sexual intercourse with me

How very *Ecclesiastical* and how *Religious*.....

Jim Jackson is a lawyer and a CPA. He is licensed to practice in California, Washington DC and Florida. He is an expert in dealing with IRS.

Formerly in the days Hubbard was still alive, Jim Jackson did L Ron Hubbard's taxes (submissions to the IRS) The cult tried hard and still does so in present time ..everything it can to destroy Jim's CPA's business.

All Scientology clients were ordered by OSA INT to cut the lines with him. He was declared SP along with numerous people who had given mega bucks to the cult. Of course, the cult keeps all the $$$...

Fair Game was in abundance to Jim Jackson who did everything asked of him in the cult..right through to OT 8, 3 Ls, and everything else in between. Happy Ending: Jim Jackson has not only survived but THRIVED.

His business faces outward to never INs. He is more affluent that he has ever been and recently purchased a lake side beautiful in Florida near Clearwater. Jim was in Los Angeles for the memorial get together put on by Janis Gillham Grady and Terri Gamboa> A couple of days later, we lived it up to a great dinner reviewing our journey and memories. (see image) Love my old comrade Jim Jackson !


Jim.Jackson.dinner.jpg
 
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Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
A GANG of people are wildly interrogating one guy. So it is 5-7 adversarial hostile against the victim being questioned. Marty Rathbun was insisting Jim Jackson was having sex with me and asked the question over and over thumping on the auditing table yelling and screaming.

It was a completely fake manufactured piece of nonsense but Marty would not let go. He was at times talking into a cell phone. Later Jim Jackson found out he was being "RUN" directly by David Miscavige who was was insisting that Jim Jackson *confess* that he was having sexual intercourse with me.
I don't even want to discuss the moral side of it. Simply the lack of practical common-sense investigation approach.

If it was ran by Miscavige, then it just illustrates Davey's shortcomings as an investigator. I'm familiar with the gang-bang sec check method. It is ineffective and a waste of man-hours. Several people getting in one anther's way trying to do the job a single person can do.

I found it is much better to do these long-format sec-checks as a "tag-team". One person sits there doing it, the other works on something else. After 2 hours or so, you go out, tell the other person what you found and what you think is the best approach, then he/she goes in and does the sec-check for the next two hours. Rinse and repeat, combine with "good-cop-bad-cop" routine if needed.

Surprisingly, I later found out that's very similar to how real police investigators do it in the big world.


The only real reason to do a gang-bang sec check would be to quickly increase the anxiety level of the accountable unit. But even that can be achieved by a single capable person.
 
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Karen#1

Well-known member
Jim Jackson enlightened me on a new definition of SP.
Laughter.
BOARDERLINE SP.
Notwithstanding that OSA INT personnel would hit on me for donations repeatedly and I would give and give .....I got enlightened by a sentence Kurt Weiland made.
Kurt was CO OSA INT for a year or 2 in the 1990s then went up lines He was having some private communication with Jim Jackson one day and obviously had an intention to create a wedge between Jim and myself
"Karen de la Carriere is *Boarderline SP* Kurt said.

Kurt Weiland.jpg
Image Kurt Weiland
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
I don't even want to discuss the moral side of it. Simply the lack of practical common-sense investigation approach.

If it was ran by Miscavige, then it just illustrates Davey's shortcomings as an investigator. I'm familiar with the gang-bang sec check method. It is ineffective and a waste of man-hours. Several people getting in one anther's way trying to do the job a single person can do.

I found it is much better to do these long-format sec-checks as a "tag-team". One person sits there doing it, the other works on something else. After 2 hours or so, you go out, tell the other person what you found and what you think is the best approach, then he/she goes in and does the sec-check for the next two hours. Rinse and repeat, combine with "good-cop-bad-cop" routine if needed.

Surprisingly, I later found out that's very similar to how real police investigators do it in the big world.


The only real reason to do a gang-bang sec check would be to quickly increase the anxiety level of the accountable unit. But even that can be achieved by a single capable person.
Gang Bang Sec Checks were not, in my opinion, conducted to actually find out anything, but rather to break down the target and get him to submit. They most closely resembled Communist "struggle sessions"

 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Gang Bang Sec Checks were not, in my opinion, conducted to actually find out anything, but rather to break down the target and get him to submit.
In other words: To increase anxiety. Yes, that's exactly what I meant in my previous post.

But that brings out an issue I already described in depth in my post under this link: if all you do is 'break' a suspect and generate too much anxiety, then the suspect will enter panic mode. In that mode he/she will say all sort of false things and admit to all sort of things that didn't happen, implicate people who had nothing to do with the case... in short, the person will generate a lot of extra work for you, because you will be the one having to go after all these false leads.

Getting people to 'submit' without getting them to tell you the truth is counterproductive. Takes a lot of your time: time you don't have. Gets you to skip even more hours of sleep, which makes you an even more sleep-deprived zombie.


Again, I'm not even talking about the moral side of things, just the pragmatic day-to-day ethics life. If Dave just ordered that gang-bang sec-check only to scare Karen and Jim or to piss them off, that just proves how dumb he is and how piss-poor an inv member he would he be.

...which actually confirms the impressions I had when I was in: That global management is way dumber than the people actually doing the investigations.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
..which actually confirms the impressions I had when I was in: That global management is way dumber than the people actually doing the investigations.
or rather that Dave's only real skill is intrigue and intimidation, which he appears very good at.
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
A few months later, after secretly telling Jim Jackson that I was "Boarderline SP" Kurt needed some money. He had major dental work.
He called me to sell me L Ron Hubbard collectibles.
oooooooh.
I was so *TEMPTED* to ask him if he wanted money $$$ from a *Boarderline SP*
The temptation hovered as we spoke.
BUT
I decided to take the moral high road.
I did not mention that I knew what he said.
I told him I had been regged heavily by ASI for these Battlefield earth prints and gently made some other excuses.
Sadly Kurt is still at the Cuckoo's nest known as "INT BASE"

Kurt.Weiland.Int event.jpg
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
or rather that Dave's only real skill is intrigue and intimidation, which he appears very good at.
You know that old Jewish joke?

Moshe: "Rabbi, help me I don't know what do about my son in law!"​
Rabbi: "Ok Moshe, what's going on with him?"​
Moshe: "He doesn't know how to play blackjack."​
Rabbi: "Is that so bad?"​
Moshe: "Yes, because he keeps playing it regardless!"​

Actually that's the thing: Dave appears to really suck at intimidation, but he doesn't realize it and still tries to do it all the time. I'm gonna quote one of my posts that I linked to previously:

See, within an investigation everything is a tool geared towards controlling the environment to go towards a solution ("There must be a victory!"). One of the most important factors to control is the anxiety of the accountable unit. If there's too little anxiety, then the person will feel "high and mighty" and probably not cooperate as much as you want. That's obvious.

What is not obvious is that too much anxiety (what you called "hitting someone too hard" ) is equally bad, if not more so. An inexperienced MAA often thinks "the more anxiety and fear the better" and goes way, way too far. Too much anxiety results in one of two possible states:
  1. "Cornered rat mode". The accountable unit will decide they have nothing to lose and lash out, decline to cooperate, decline to say anything (or just say: "Fuck this, fuck you, fuck your investigation!" etc). Sure, that person is then in deep trouble, but the investigation is stopped. Good luck getting any good info from that person.
  2. "Panic mode" (Spanish inquisition galore). The person will be so scared that they will try very hard to tell you whatever they think you want to hear. They will admit to crimes they have not committed. They will make up imaginary crimes, implicate innocent people... say every dumb and crazy thing to get out. And that's a problem, because then you end up with a mix of lies and truths you have to sort out. Good luck going on all the wild goose chases the panicked person sent you on. Oh and if you are found wasting time looking into false stuff, YOU get blamed because "obviously the meter is infallible, so you fucked up when you ran them through the fucking list"
Thus the accountable unit needs to be kept in the "goldielocks zone" - not too hot, not too cold. The fear level has to be "just right". And for each individual that zone is somewhere else. You need to learn when to be nice and lower anxiety and when to play hardball.

That's the problem with Davey it seems. He would suck as a member of inv, because he would keep pushing people too far. That's roughly what seems to have been happening at gold - he pushed his close associates like Mike Rinder into "cornered rat mode", so they started defecting and the whole management started falling apart when the hole was happening etc.

I wasn't there, but I suspect the reason so many people ended up in the hole is because Davey also pushed people into "panic mode", so they started admitting to crimes they have not committed and started accusing innocents and implicating them in the whole mess. Then in turn some of those people were pushed into "panic mode" and it became a vicious cirlce of accusations and cross-accusations and then everyone and their mother ended up in the hole.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Jim Jackson enlightened me on a new definition of SP.
Laughter.
BOARDERLINE SP.
Notwithstanding that OSA INT personnel would hit on me for donations repeatedly and I would give and give .....I got enlightened by a sentence Kurt Weiland made.
Kurt was CO OSA INT for a year or 2 in the 1990s then went up lines He was having some private communication with Jim Jackson one day and obviously had an intention to create a wedge between Jim and myself
"Karen de la Carriere is *Boarderline SP* Kurt said.

View attachment 12301
Image Kurt Weiland
.

SCIENTOLOGY FACT: Everyone is a borderline SP. Regrettably, however, there is not enough time and resources to Declare all of them. That's why Scientology first handles the "most able SPs"--those most able to interrupt, slow or in any way impede the flow of cash up the command channel. Once all those SPs are handled, the org can then catch up on it's DATELINED SPs and fair game & destroy those as well.

.
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
The Sad Story of Kurt Weiland former CO OSA INT, former WDC OSA.
Kurt Weiland is a bombastic Austrian who was "Guardian Office" staff Munich and then Executive Director Munich Org where he whipped Munich org into shape with rising statistics So he got transported from Germany to run OSA INT for a couple of years before he was hauled up to INT Base.
Little did he know what he was in for...
Kurt Weiland in his "glory days" is on the stage at "International Events" ~~ a bevy of lies of
unprecedented expansion, and changing civilizations' crime rate with "Way to Happiness" booklets.
��
��
��

Then it happened.
Kurt fell into some kind of disfavor with Miscavige and was sent to SP hole where he resided for some years.
One day in their high torture dramatizations, Kurt Weiland was strapped to a chair for "water torture treatment." He was forced to sit under an air conditioner while water dripped on him. This went on for some 12 hours

Even while even his body was shaking uncontrollably. And his teeth were chattering.
Then other SP Hole inmates saw that his lips had turned blue. He was in serious shock.
Only then did it stop. This is a torture chamber also known as SP Hole.
This is the conduct of the highest Execs of the cult. Just think about it. The behavior and madness at the Headquarters of the Cult of Scientology.
This story is told in more detail by Mike Rinder and Marty who exposed it on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmDOhCN6S3Q
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
One day in their high torture dramatizations, Kurt Weiland was strapped to a chair for "water torture treatment." He was forced to sit under an air conditioner while water dripped on him. This went on for some 12 hours
Even while even his body was shaking uncontrollably. And his teeth were chattering.
Then other SP Hole inmates saw that his lips had turned blue. He was in serious shock.
I heard what were either distorted rumors about this event (or maybe "a similar earlier time" so to speak), when I was still inside. Someone told me that people get punished by being forced to strip to their undies and then stand for hours under an AC vent turned to max cool, with their hands kept stretched above their heads so they would get tired faster.

Back then, I was under the impression that this was done on the RPF and I still thought it might be another made up story aimed to scare people. If people told me this is being done to int management people, I'd have laughed in their face.

Well, now I know. Stranger than fiction.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
. . . when I was still inside. Someone told me that people get punished by being forced to strip to their undies and then stand for hours under an AC vent turned to max cool, with their hands kept stretched above their heads so they would get tired faster.
This is really Nazi-Stasi-NKVD stuff. Horrifying.


Pray tell, what kept you -- and others -- from leaving at that moment? Curious what went through your mind(s).
 

cakemaker

Well-known member
Jim Jackson and I go back a long ways together.

In the 1990s OSA INT put crosshairs on us and targeted us with daily, weekly monthly sec checks which we had to report to the HGB for. Meekly and obediently we would show up and pay and pay and pay for the *Intelligence* type questions, we were well conditioned to OBEY.

But the sec checks that deeply impacted Jim Jackson were the GANG BANG sec checks given him by Marty Rathbun. These are called GANG BANG because It is not done in the format of an auditor (counselor) and client (pc).

A GANG of people are wildly interrogating one guy. So it is 5-7 adversarial hostile against the victim being questioned. Marty Rathbun was insisting Jim Jackson was having sex with me and asked the question over and over thumping on the auditing table yelling and screaming.

It was a completely fake manufactured piece of nonsense but Marty would not let go. He was at times talking into a cell phone. Later Jim Jackson found out he was being "RUN" directly by David Miscavige who was was insisting that Jim Jackson *confess* that he was having sexual intercourse with me

How very *Ecclesiastical* and how *Religious*.....
Were "Gang Bang" Sec Checks directed by Hubbard and was there "tech" on doing them?

I got one of those back in the day and was dumbfounded because there was no "LRH" that ever described this procedure.
I had thought that Sec Checks followed auditing rules with the exception of the statement " I am not auditing you".
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
Were "Gang Bang" Sec Checks directed by Hubbard and was there "tech" on doing them?

I got one of those back in the day and was dumbfounded because there was no "LRH" that ever described this procedure.
I had thought that Sec Checks followed auditing rules with the exception of the statement " I am not auditing you".
There is no evidence that Hubbard was aware of the Gang Bang sec checks because he died in 1986
The gang bang sec checks started in 1992/1993 and continued through the 1990s.
It has the fingerprint, smell and odor of Miscavige's "SRA" all over it.
 

cakemaker

Well-known member
There is no evidence that Hubbard was aware of the Gang Bang sec checks because he died in 1986
The gang bang sec checks started in 1992/1993 and continued through the 1990s.
It has the fingerprint, smell and odor of Miscavige's "SRA" all over it.
The first ones I personally witnessed were at the Mission Holders' Conference in 1982.
I imagine that they started before that up lines or at Flag.
Jesse Prince may remember because he was in one of them in 1982.
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
Hmmmmm I have never heard of gang bang sec checking at the conference and I have all the tapes of the audio of the Mission Holder's conference.
 

cakemaker

Well-known member
Hmmmmm I have never heard of gang bang sec checking at the conference and I have all the tapes of the audio of the Mission Holder's conference.
Thanks Karen.

Wow!
You have the audio?? Please share if you can.

I saw it (and was subjected to) a gang bang sec check. It was done in another room.
Just out of curiosity I Googled "scientology gang bang sec check 1982" and there are a number of hits including stuff from Andre Tabayoyan, Larry Brennan, Stacy Young.
Something was going on then that wasn't "Confessionals".

Attached picture doesn't show the screaming and the person being surrounded but it did happen.
ScreenShot001.jpg
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Pray tell, what kept you -- and others -- from leaving at that moment? Curious what went through your mind(s).
Firstly, it was just a rumor. I didn't entirely believe that rumor at the time. I was in the mindset of: "Maybe it is true, but maybe its just more made up BS". WUS had its share of unsubstantiated, often wildly crazy stories floating around.

Secondly, I thought that if this really goes on then it must be some wacko doing this to people on the RPF or the RPF's RPF etc.

Thirdly, SO is a 'tough' macho outfit in many ways, and it is not just the fact that you need to call the women "sir". It is a bit like real world military: the program itself is structured in a way to make members desensitized to crudeness, violence and all the "how high sir?" BS. starts early with the EPF.

Most importantly (and it may sound clod): Wherever this was taking place, it was not under my command and did not involve my team. We were kept tired and very busy. Completing my tasks and looking out for my team - that was consuming 99% of my energy and close to all of my time. I just didn't have the time and energy to worry about stuff happening on the RPF or on some faraway base. I had enough worries of my own right then and there.
These sorts of issues were to me a bit like the war in Iraq - I wasn't happy with it, but I felt there was absolutely nothing I could do and that sitting and thinking about it would just divert me from the things I actually could do.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
There is no evidence that Hubbard was aware of the Gang Bang sec checks because he died in 1986
I know of some publics who received them around 1980 at Flag, when there
was some hysteria going on. I can 100% confirm this. It was brutal and unkind
for the publics receiving them. Positively not based on any real deeds or guilt
of the Flag publics, but rather on hysteria and paranoia at Flag. (I can't be more
specific.) The "gang bang" sec checks involved an auditor plus one or two execs
in the room, baiting the PreOTs during the sessions. I know and spoke to the
Flag publics at length.
 
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