Is There A Base Population In The Scn. Cult That Would Exist Regardless Of What Happens?

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
Dotey OT:
Not to pry, but what kind of things are these people hearing and still being able to not question too much and stay in?

I'm curious about the level of cognitive dissonance -- for example, the anxiety in one's mind after hearing LRH did not make it to OT and died of a garden variety stroke -- that people can endure and still stay in.

I wrote this in 2014 on ESMB
"Five years ago when the Truth Rundown videos and Marty's blog went public, I told a friend the information that was made public would eventually penetrate throughout the whole org via auditor worksheets of PreOTs who had read or seen the stories. First the CS reads the worksheet, then the Ethics Officer handling the PreOT hears all about it, and then the information passes on to nosy execs who are wondering what's happening with the PreOT on the lines.​
"My feeling was that you just can't stop ALL this information from penetrating and poisoning the entire tech and exec strata of any advanced org in time. You just can't stop the "entheta" and it will slowly plant seeds of doubt over time."​

What kind of stuff are they hearing nowadays and yet remain in?

What things are they saying or gossiping about? Just mildly curious. Want to be amused. :coolwink:
Public leaving of high profile folks such as Leah Remini, Paul Haggis, Debbie Cook, Mike Rinder, Marty. Bits & pieces plus mystery of things like Heber's disappearance with no word, Mary Sue in prison, ridicule of OT materials on the internet, Going Clear on HBO. Everyone in that has a computer and looks on the internet for work, news (Of course, if you dare) entertainment. There was always something that would come up in discussion but it would be blown off. There were specific bits on entater that I can't recall at the moment, but I do want to think back more specifically for an answer for your question. It seems that many people around me heard a little of every story, but not the whole story, of course.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
There is another view to this that I am seeing, and that is this : When in my scamatology life did I decide that I would stay in, through thick and through thin, regardless of what I heard or saw or had happen to me, was made to do to another or others, ad nauseum, and always accept the lame answer as the real answer. I don't know the answer to that one. I am going to think about this.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
Dotey OT:
Not to pry, but what kind of things are these people hearing and still being able to not question too much and stay in?

I'm curious about the level of cognitive dissonance -- for example, the anxiety in one's mind after hearing LRH did not make it to OT and died of a garden variety stroke -- that people can endure and still stay in.

I wrote this in 2014 on ESMB
"Five years ago when the Truth Rundown videos and Marty's blog went public, I told a friend the information that was made public would eventually penetrate throughout the whole org via auditor worksheets of PreOTs who had read or seen the stories. First the CS reads the worksheet, then the Ethics Officer handling the PreOT hears all about it, and then the information passes on to nosy execs who are wondering what's happening with the PreOT on the lines.​
"My feeling was that you just can't stop ALL this information from penetrating and poisoning the entire tech and exec strata of any advanced org in time. You just can't stop the "entheta" and it will slowly plant seeds of doubt over time."​

What kind of stuff are they hearing nowadays and yet remain in?

What things are they saying or gossiping about? Just mildly curious. Want to be amused. :coolwink:
One thing that kept happening was the disappearance of upper level management. There were people that were looked up to, but they were no longer around with no explanation. Dan Koon, Ray Mithoff, Guillaume, Mike Rinder, the list was getting big, and with no word, really, it just didn't make sense. The Debbie Cook. Many of us that had been around Flag for training or services, really looked up to her. I didn't really know her, just saw her alot. The whole disappearance mass extinction thing was odd. We would talk to some others, but not much.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
<snip > the disappearance of upper level management <snip>
All terrific comments. :thumbsup: I left about the time of GAT I and had been
living in a smaller town, so I didn't get the benefit of a lot of gossip. But
I finally "took the plunge" and did a deep dive on the Internet around
2005. I never had any friends to discuss all this with until I become a
member of ESMB. Had a ton of questions at first. The reveals were
all so incredulous at the time, especially about Hubbard's mental
and physical state at his final demise. A shocker for me then.

Thank you for your responses. :yes:
"disappearance mass extinction thing"
:hysterical:
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Stockholm syndrome


look it up
.
Under "Stockholm Syndrome" in a thesaurus it lists the synonym "Stuck-Hole Syndrome". This colloquially describes a "Hole" that a Scientologist becomes "Stuck" inside of as a punishment for saying, doing or thinking anything that is non-standard or not-ideal. "The Hole" is a double-wide trailer with iron bars on the windows and guards blocking the doors, ergo a de facto prison.

It may sound degraded, down-tone & down-stat---but actually The Hole is quite up-stat! It used to be a single-wide trailer but then ethics/tech went in and it experienced unprecedented expansion!

.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
The whole disappearance mass extinction thing was odd. We would talk to some others, but not much.
.

IF RON HAD A DO-OVER: People in the vicinity of Hubbard and Scientology organizations have been "extincted" since the 1950s. Particularly the greatest achievers, biggest upstats, highest OTs and most elite, high-ranking international management executives. When they would mysteriously "AS-IS" it always had ripples, though Hubbard's tyrannical "scripture" and "policies" made it a "High Crime" to discuss such matters.

If Hubbard had a do-over, this would have been a better handling.

1) Secretly declare the person's status as "DDEA". (Declared, Disappeared, Extincted & As-Ised)​
2) Quietly dispose of the DDEA out at sea, from one of the Sea Org vessels. If anyone back on the ship asks about where the person is, just r-factor them that the terminal "went uplines to work on a vital confidential mission for senior management".​

This would efficiently handle the DevT and entheta that results from 98% of Scientologists blowing. It also prevents wasting valuable Sea Org reserves on cremation, urns---not to mention eliminates the DevT of staff losing 20 minutes of valuable production time in order to keep PR in with the IRS by reading the so-called "Scientology Funeral Service".

.
 
I had the thought the other day, after driving by the org and seeing five cars in the parking lot at a peak time of day, what number of people would stay involved almost regardless of what happens?
There was a small, controversial Christian cult that was pretty big in the 17th Century. They were call the Muggletonians and their 'war' with the Quakers was well documented.

I'll just leave this wiki article here.
The Muggletonians, named after Lodowicke Muggleton, were a small Protestant Christian movement which began in 1651
....
The group survived into the twentieth century. The last Muggletonian, Philip Noakes of Matfield, Kent, died on 26 February 1979.
 

Zertel

Well-known member
There is another view to this that I am seeing, and that is this : When in my scamatology life did I decide that I would stay in, through thick and through thin, regardless of what I heard or saw or had happen to me, was made to do to another or others, ad nauseum, and always accept the lame answer as the real answer. I don't know the answer to that one. I am going to think about this.
Scientology Tek has the answer to everything. You need to do a "Date and Locate" and "Rehab the Release".

(Joke)

Several times I've tried to reconstruct my Scientology timetrack.........er.........timeline. Where was I and what was I doing and thinking at different times during my Scientology "adventure". My memory isn't good enough so I gave up.

Maybe scn can help me with that.

Move to the beginning of the incident.
When was it? (1975)
Move through to the end of the incident. (1981)
Tell me what happened.
😊
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
Scientology Tek has the answer to everything. You need to do a "Date and Locate" and "Rehab the Release".

(Joke)

Several times I've tried to reconstruct my Scientology timetrack.........er.........timeline. Where was I and what was I doing and thinking at different times during my Scientology "adventure". My memory isn't good enough so I gave up.

Maybe scn can help me with that.

Move to the beginning of the incident.
When was it? (1975)
Move through to the end of the incident. (1981)
Tell me what happened.
😊
I always especially liked the "Point to where it occurred" aspect, where you are supposed to point in the direction of that part of the galaxy where that event occurred. L11 or L12, somewhere in those crazy processes I had to point out a location not on terra firma. "Oh that happened over there" like I really knew. Ugh. What a sucker.

At any rate, I remember being upset after I was on staff for about a year, and I was talking to the SNR C/S of the org about my financial woes. I said something like "you can't make enough money on staff to survive" and he said something like "Wait, that's an enemy line!" I sat there looking at him like he was an idiot, while I knew what I knew to be true, but there sits this guy, trained and all-knowing, saying to me that what I said was a shitty thing to say (albeit true to me).

Now that I think of this, I did what I could to survive, and make money and finish out my contract, which I did. I counted the days as I got closer, and when I finished, I didn't participate as much. Until I got my routing off sec check. That occurred some time after I left staff. There wasn't a ton of interest in forcing me through that, but I had to do it before I did any more auditing. I had made it through objectives while on staff, and had a sec check while on staff, but didn't start moving on the bridge until about three years later after I finished my contract. Actually though, the seeds of reasonableness were already there. But I tell you what, nothing like a sec check to make you think that YOU were at fault, that YOU were the cause of a lot of bad shit. Whether you were or you weren't.
 
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Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
I had a though on this subject again today. I keep thinking of people that I knew while I was in, that would never leave regardless of what happened.

I wonder how close the current staff and public census is to that point?? I like the 20,000 number of current staff and public planet wide. It may be a little more or less than that.

Is the loss of people for whatever reason being made up by new people and kids of currently in cultists?

I want to believe that there is a way to lessen this number by another several thousand in a year.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
Btw, I realized that somewhere on my gradual disenchantment of SCN, that I would be ok with family members not going into the cult, because of how hard to experience some of it was.

Then I realized that SCN is not for everyone. This was because it took a lot of money and understanding, and willingness to understand the "big picture" and not to get mired down in it's eccentricities.

Did anyone else think that way?
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
At first I was way excited and actually brought people into the fold.

After I was able to observe the madness in action I became horrified of bringing anyone anywhere near any of it and then spent an inordinate amount of time searching for the "sane" place in Scientology...a futile pursuit.

I used to believe that somewhere over the rainbow there was an Emerald City of theta and sanity for Scientology.

Once I found out that it was exactly the opposite I was toast as a Scientologist.
 

Karakorum

I tried to be a good cop in the wrong police force
About the initial topic of the thread:
The people who are lest likely to leave seem to be of the following categories:
  • CMO, RTC, CST people. In general: those who are part of Dave's command structure that he created to replace the WDC and int management. They have certain privileges, an "esprit de corps" and a feeling of agency and power.
  • Older people (70s etc) who spent the vast majority of their lives in scientology, who have many family members inside. they are unwilling to risk getting disconnected from their grandchildren and are afraid they won't be able to make a living alone in the "big world" at their age.
  • People who experienced direct positive effects during processing. They might be 100% convinced the tech absolutely works and they want to stay inside because they feel that's the only place where they will get the correct OT levels.
  • A sub group of the above is people waiting for OT IX.
  • People who may think Dave and the current management sucks, but that the church is still delivering the correct tech and thus is the only organization that would save the world when push comes to shove.
  • A LOT of people are kept in by inertia. They won't leave unless they see other people around them leave. I think that's what happened back in 2006. So many people were leaving that a lot of those previously kept inside by inertia were taken away by the tide.

Speaking about SO - there is an esprit de corps and a general notion along the lines of:
- "We are rough and tough. Lots of stuff is not ok, but we can withstand anything, we can soldier on. I'm not a wuss, I won't quit. The job needs to get done and I'll get it done even if some people will get minced on the way there. Can't make an omelette without crushing some eggs."
So I think with most SO members when it comes to leaving we are looking at an all-or-nothing scenario. People stay until the moment they had enough of it so badly that they just catapult out of it.


I had a though on this subject again today. I keep thinking of people that I knew while I was in, that would never leave regardless of what happened.

I wonder how close the current staff and public census is to that point?? I like the 20,000 number of current staff and public planet wide. It may be a little more or less than that.

Is the loss of people for whatever reason being made up by new people and kids of currently in cultists?

I want to believe that there is a way to lessen this number by another several thousand in a year.
I heard the numbers 71.000 and 78.000 back in the early 2000s. For the love of God, I cannot recall if they referred to just WUS, the whole of US, the whole of North America or the world. But I am pretty sure I recall hearing about numbers in the 70.000 range.
From late 2003 you could feel that there's more people leaving than coming in (including 2nd gen kids being joining staff). Starting early 2006 you could feel that the levee broke and that there's hordes of people leaving. Increasing number of cases and KRs were assigned to us, that I decommited as: "Guy already left the church. Pass this case to OSA if you want as an external. Inv considers the matter closed". This means that there was a very short time between guy being reporting and having him leave.
In winter 2006/2007 there were real feelings of concern being felt across the whole structure including FOLO, CMO etc.

I have no real data about current numbers, but I'd expect something in the 30.000 - 20.000 range.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
About the initial topic of the thread:
The people who are lest likely to leave seem to be of the following categories:
  • CMO, RTC, CST people. In general: those who are part of Dave's command structure that he created to replace the WDC and int management. They have certain privileges, an "esprit de corps" and a feeling of agency and power.
  • Older people (70s etc) who spent the vast majority of their lives in scientology, who have many family members inside. they are unwilling to risk getting disconnected from their grandchildren and are afraid they won't be able to make a living alone in the "big world" at their age.
  • People who experienced direct positive effects during processing. They might be 100% convinced the tech absolutely works and they want to stay inside because they feel that's the only place where they will get the correct OT levels.
  • A sub group of the above is people waiting for OT IX.
  • People who may think Dave and the current management sucks, but that the church is still delivering the correct tech and thus is the only organization that would save the world when push comes to shove.
  • A LOT of people are kept in by inertia. They won't leave unless they see other people around them leave. I think that's what happened back in 2006. So many people were leaving that a lot of those previously kept inside by inertia were taken away by the tide.
I would agree with these categories.

I was surprised to find a few people, OT's mostly, OT V & OTVIII that were disgruntled and disaffected but HAD NOT read or searched for "ENTHETA". These were people that were out for a while, a few years. I have spoken to a few old time SP's, that were SP's for other reasons apparently than posting on the internet. It is baffling.


Speaking about SO - there is an esprit de corps and a general notion along the lines of:
- "We are rough and tough. Lots of stuff is not ok, but we can withstand anything, we can soldier on. I'm not a wuss, I won't quit. The job needs to get done and I'll get it done even if some people will get minced on the way there. Can't make an omelette without crushing some eggs."
So I think with most SO members when it comes to leaving we are looking at an all-or-nothing scenario. People stay until the moment they had enough of it so badly that they just catapult out of it.
I have seen more people go into the SO and not stick lately. By lately = the last five years. But that is only what I see, and I am not everywhere!!

I heard the numbers 71.000 and 78.000 back in the early 2000s. For the love of God, I cannot recall if they referred to just WUS, the whole of US, the whole of North America or the world. But I am pretty sure I recall hearing about numbers in the 70.000 range.
From late 2003 you could feel that there's more people leaving than coming in (including 2nd gen kids being joining staff). Starting early 2006 you could feel that the levee broke and that there's hordes of people leaving. Increasing number of cases and KRs were assigned to us, that I decommited as: "Guy already left the church. Pass this case to OSA if you want as an external. Inv considers the matter closed". This means that there was a very short time between guy being reporting and having him leave.
In winter 2006/2007 there were real feelings of concern being felt across the whole structure including FOLO, CMO etc.

I have no real data about current numbers, but I'd expect something in the 30.000 - 20.000 range.
I don't see many new people writing success stories or being broadcast by the local org. I can only assume that is because there aren't that many new people sticking. At least not at this org. Maybe two or three times each year, some name pops up that we don't recognize, otherwise it is the "Usual Suspects" as we used to say about who attends ideal org fundraising events.

I actually see more people that I do not have a clue about posted as IAS contributors. I am stunned by the number of apparently wealthy people that appear not to be from the US, donating tons o' money. Not that they should always be from the US, it's just it gives an apparency that it's alive and well elsewhere. It's not alive and well locally for sure, I can get stats actually, it might take some doing, but I can get them. I have heard that there are weeks without pay. It's an ideal org. But then there are the IAS donors, it seems to be contrary.
 

Karakorum

I tried to be a good cop in the wrong police force
I have seen more people go into the SO and not stick lately. By lately = the last five years. But that is only what I see, and I am not everywhere!!
Yeah my direct observations are a decade old. the rest are extrapolations from various accounts available in the "criticnet" ;)

I actually see more people that I do not have a clue about posted as IAS contributors. I am stunned by the number of apparently wealthy people that appear not to be from the US, donating tons o' money. Not that they should always be from the US, it's just it gives an apparency that it's alive and well elsewhere. It's not alive and well locally for sure, I can get stats actually, it might take some doing, but I can get them. I have heard that there are weeks without pay. It's an ideal org. But then there are the IAS donors, it seems to be contrary.
I can't speak about Latam, but as far as Europe goes, things are not going well for the CoS at all. They have much worse PR in Germany than anywhere else in the world. In Hungary they are limping along at best. In Russia they surged in the Yeltsin era and peaked roughly at the dawn of the Putin era, but have taken a sharp decline since. The government is clamping down on all religious movements, scientology including there.

I think the church is a master at making people think that "stuff is going well everywhere except here". I think its going on pretty poorly everywhere, its just that the church gives everone an ant-view so they cannot see the bigger picture and think only their own hood sucks.
 
O

Oat Tea Ate

Guest
Dotey OT:
Not to pry, but what kind of things are these people hearing and still being able to not question too much and stay in?

I'm curious about the level of cognitive dissonance -- for example, the anxiety in one's mind after hearing LRH did not make it to OT and died of a garden variety stroke -- that people can endure and still stay in.

I wrote this in 2014 on ESMB
"Five years ago when the Truth Rundown videos and Marty's blog went public, I told a friend the information that was made public would eventually penetrate throughout the whole org via auditor worksheets of PreOTs who had read or seen the stories. First the CS reads the worksheet, then the Ethics Officer handling the PreOT hears all about it, and then the information passes on to nosy execs who are wondering what's happening with the PreOT on the lines.​
"My feeling was that you just can't stop ALL this information from penetrating and poisoning the entire tech and exec strata of any advanced org in time. You just can't stop the "entheta" and it will slowly plant seeds of doubt over time."​

What kind of stuff are they hearing nowadays and yet remain in?

What things are they saying or gossiping about? Just mildly curious. Want to be amused. :coolwink:
"Five years ago when the Truth Rundown videos and Marty's blog went public, I told a friend the information that was made public would eventually penetrate throughout the whole org via auditor worksheets of PreOTs who had read or seen the stories. First the CS reads the worksheet, then the Ethics Officer handling the PreOT hears all about it, and then the information passes on to nosy execs who are wondering what's happening with the PreOT on the lines."

"My feeling was that you just can't stop ALL this information from penetrating and poisoning the entire tech and exec strata of any advanced org in time. You just can't stop the "entheta" and it will slowly plant seeds of doubt over time."

This is exactly how they operate!! ^^^^ Excellent post ILove2Lurk!!
 
O

Oat Tea Ate

Guest
I have opinions about this question. I wrote a couple posts
on the now-archival ESMB website and here's one:

Excerpt from the ESMB thread "The end of scientology!"
"I think future Internet historians will mark Oct-Nov 2013 (Super Power / GAT II releases) as the major turning point and "beginning of the end" of the COS. However, I've studied history enough to realize that many movements and schools of thought have a long shelf lives and are unkillable. Some endure for hundreds of years, despite questionable or sketchy delivery on their ultimate promises.​
"Though Rosicrucianism has zero influence in the world, the main thing you can say about it is it's still around in some form or another after 400 years. Just tossing it up as one example for a look."​
I believe these practices will stay around forever because there is no science behind any of them and they are ALL based on BELIEF.
Scientology is quite the trap to lure you in. Scientology promises SCIENCE however, it does not deliver. By the time you find that out, you have spent way too much time and money and the confusion will be so intense, it will take a while to sort it all out.
My bet - Scientology will mutate much like the cornavirus 19 and other known sources of trouble (alanzo) and be around for eternity.
Because it is based on belief and faith. People want to believe there is something beyond this life. It is comforting.

The truth kills these viruses. So always go with the truth.
 

Karakorum

I tried to be a good cop in the wrong police force
Scientology promises SCIENCE however, it does not deliver.
Yeah Scientology has science in its name, so obviously it has nothing to do with it. Just like the "People's Democratic Republic of Korea" has nothing to do with either democracy or people... nor is it a republic.

I guess the korea part has some validity as its half Korea. ;)
 
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