Is There A Base Population In The Scn. Cult That Would Exist Regardless Of What Happens?

[Dotey OT]

I had the thought the other day, after driving by the org and seeing five cars in the parking lot at a peak time of day, what number of people would stay involved almost regardless of what happens? I see active scamatologists almost every day. I have business relationships with active scamatologists. I have people that I am responsible for having gotten out. I have people that I am responsible for keeping them from going in. But I see people that are in now, that are totally, totally unaware of any of the truth about it, and would not at first blush accept anything bad. I actually have had people end relationships with me concerning how I left the cult. They could not "in good conscience" continue a relationship in any capacity. These people do not live in a vacuum without internet. They see something new all the time. Even with the filtering that I have hear about, you can't hardly go through a few weeks without some random damning tidbit somewhere. Some of these current people will peel off. I think I don't truly know what would happen if the dwarf disappeared. Would someone from the ranks step forward? Under someone's auspices, like Diana Hubbard?

But with such a war chest, how long could this go on? I think there are parishioners practicing snake handling in the southeast US than are active planetary scamatologists. 125 churches with people handling snakes? How many parishioners at each church? I will guarantee that anyone that has been there for awhile knows someone that lost a digit or worse!! Yet they still exist?

Snake handling in religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 51]

When Kerry Gleeson reprieved all the RPF in 1982, a few refused to be reprieved and insisted on staying to finish their programs. Masochistic, don’t you think?

 

[Dotey OT]

I lived in CW, was pretty involved until recently, and I know some people that exist on staff and off staff, on various points of the bridge. Some of these people have been on lines working with the DSA of different areas, and like DSA type activity. They have to had exposure to a great deal of data, from different sources, from many different people. I know this because I heard some of them say things that I only know now, having been out and have been trying to find out as much as possible. And the things that they said, at the time I couldn't think were true, but I know for a fact they are. People know this stuff and aren't leaving. What will be the minimum number of those crazy creatures??

 

[programmer_guy]

I don't think that the Church of Scientology will ever completely disappear.

But the numbers of actively involved Scientologists is far below the 1970s and will remain that way.
They destroyed the bottom introduction with the Mission Holders Conference and then came the internet.

 

[Karen#1]

If I learned anything from Scientology,

I had the thought the other day, after driving by the org and seeing five cars in the parking lot at a peak time of day, what number of people would stay involved almost regardless of what happens? I see active scamatologists almost every day. I have business relationships with active scamatologists. I have people that I am responsible for having gotten out. I have people that I am responsible for keeping them from going in. But I see people that are in now, that are totally, totally unaware of any of the truth about it, and would not at first blush accept anything bad. I actually have had people end relationships with me concerning how I left the cult. They could not "in good conscience" continue a relationship in any capacity. These people do not live in a vacuum without internet. They see something new all the time. Even with the filtering that I have hear about, you can't hardly go through a few weeks without some random damning tidbit somewhere. Some of these current people will peel off. I think I don't truly know what would happen if the dwarf disappeared. Would someone from the ranks step forward? Under someone's auspices, like Diana Hubbard?

But with such a war chest, how long could this go on? I think there are parishioners practicing snake handling in the southeast US than are active planetary scamatologists. 125 churches with people handling snakes? How many parishioners at each church? I will guarantee that anyone that has been there for awhile knows someone that lost a digit or worse!! Yet they still exist?

Snake handling in religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The human mind can imagine any reality and believe in it despite evidence to the contrary staring them in the face because they BELIEVE the SOURCE.

Here's a very recent example ~~

Christian pastor tells South African congregation to drink RAT POISON

Pastor Light Monyeki told worshipers at the Grace Living Hope Ministries in South Africa to drink from a bottle of water laced with noxious Rattex to 'nourish their bodies' and 'heal their sickness'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Karen#1]

And here's what happened because they BELIEVED

5 church members die after pastor made them drink rat poison

Five members of a church in South Africa who drank rat poison given to them by their pastor have died.

www.pulse.ng

 

[TheSneakster]

When Kerry Gleeson reprieved all the RPF in 1982, a few refused to be reprieved and insisted on staying to finish their programs. Masochistic, don’t you think?

Not at all masochistic, if those particular persons felt they were getting good results with their auditing program and wished to complete it before leaving the RPF. Without Staff Auditors under the Staff Section Officers in most of those orgs, they would absolutely been left in the middle of unfinished auditing actions.

Perhaps you might try interviewing those who stayed and asking them why they chose to stay ? Blanket judgmental disparagement of people whom you don't even know personally is a bit hypocritical, if we are pissed off about such behavior from Churchies, don't you think ?

 

[Deleted member 51]

Not at all masochistic, if those particular persons felt they were getting good results with their auditing program and wished to complete it before leaving the RPF. Without Staff Auditors under the Staff Section Officers in most of those orgs, they would absolutely been left in the middle of unfinished auditing actions.

Perhaps you might try interviewing those who stayed and asking them why they chose to stay ? Blanket judgmental disparagement of people whom you don't even know personally is a bit hypocritical, if we are pissed off about such behavior from Churchies, don't you think ?

Actually, TheSneakster, I did meet them. I was the one sent by Kerry to reprieve each one of them, individually. I was running back and forth with individual reprieve orders all day long.

You are making a blanket judgement that they were getting good results and they couldn't get auditing in their orgs. That may have been the case for some, but I heard at least a few different answers like:

"If I leave now, they might send me back again, but if I finish now, I'll be done."
OR
"I was Flag staff. My wife is at Flag. If I get reprieved to PAC, I may never see her again."
OR
"I just want to finish. I've been on here 9 months and I'm toward the end and just want to finish."
OR
(from one who had been on for years and wasn't getting anywhere with it) "No."

That's not all of the answers, just the ones I remember.

Think of that, Hobs. A fear of never seeing your spouse again because of your Church. A fear of being sent back because you don't trust the reprieve is real or will be permanent. Continuing to do something just for the sake of finishing it.

Most of the time, in most orgs, the RPF was a cruel, abusive punishment program and the RPF were treated like DBs and criminals. There were times and places this was not so, but when that happened, the RPF 3434 series was not being followed, and that is church doctrine.

RPFers got auditing from amateur auditors on a program that was a cookie-cutter FPRD program and sec checking for all. It was not an individual program to make gains, that's for sure.

 

[Zertel]

I left around 1981 or 1982 because of the resumption of the monthly price increases which I thought were greedy and unjustified. At the time I still considered the subject itself to be a worthwhile self improvement and self awareness endeavor but I wasn't willing to pay the price.

As far as I know the changes in the organization took place gradually over time and people adapted. Current members might look at the current "delivery system" as normal.

The current cherch seems to be mostly a division of wealthy public people buying services and donating money and poor staff members. I spent about a year and a half as a staff member and was able to co-audit and do some courses for free. Also, if you bought a training package the co-auditng and case supervision was free. This isn't particularly relevant to the thread but just some historical information.

 

[Harden Long]

I left around 1981 or 1982 because of the resumption of the monthly price increases which I thought were greedy and unjustified. At the time I still considered the subject itself to be a worthwhile self improvement and self awareness endeavor but I wasn't willing to pay the price.

As far as I know the changes in the organization took place gradually over time and people adapted. Current members might look at the current "delivery system" as normal.

The current cherch seems to be mostly a division of wealthy public people buying services and donating money and poor staff members. I spent about a year and a half as a staff member and was able to co-audit and do some courses for free.

That's when and why I left as well. But I think that some who have swallowed the hook too deeply just can't spit it as it's set too deep. They lived a life where Scamatology was everything to them and never developed a plan B. To use Scamatology to describe their mental state one could say that it in itself has become their primary ser fac, and for them to be right Scamatology has to be right. JUST HAS TO BE, WHAHHHH!!!! There's the mindset. They have been programmed to "never be reasonable" so they set reason itself aside and fight to their death to adhere to their original beliefs from when they first drank the Kool-Aid. Scamatology set their mindset in stone and it's become their albatross to the bitter end. They'd rather die with it than live without it as they've forgotten how to think without it thinking for them. The "I want my Maypo" generations want their Scamatology, slaves to their graves.

 

[Zertel]

That's when and why I left as well. But I think that some who have swallowed the hook too deeply just can't spit it as it's set too deep. They lived a life where Scamatology was everything to them and never developed a plan B. To use Scamatology to describe their mental state one could say that it in itself has become their primary ser fac, and for them to be right Scamatology has to be right. JUST HAS TO BE, WHAHHHH!!!! There's the mindset. They have been programmed to "never be reasonable" so they set reason itself aside and fight to their death to adhere to their original beliefs from when they first drank the Kool-Aid. Scamatology set their mindset in stone and it's become their albatross to the bitter end. They'd rather die with it than live without it as they've forgotten how to think without it thinking for them. The "I want my Maypo" generations want their Scamatology, slaves to their graves.

I was living in LA at the time and joined the Great Exodus as some people call it. Several blown Scientologist (lol) get together groups sprang up and I joined one. There were about fifteen of us and we met weekly at someone's house. We listened to a lot of channeling tapes and discussed other practices. It turns out that most of us were interested in our own self improvement rather than saving the world so nobody was too shook up about leaving Scientology behind.

On one of the channeling tapes a group of OTs had recruited a channeler and was grilling the "entity" about whether OT3 was real or not. He hedged and replied, "Well, that is one several possibilities . . ." and went on to expound about other possibilities and explorations in the "theta universe" in scientology lingo. lol

Maybe the entity didn't want people to feel bad or think they missed out on anything by blowing Scientology. As the saying goes, "There are many paths to the top of the mountain."

 

[exbritscino]

"Is There A Base Population In The Scn. Cult That Would Exist Regardless Of What Happens?"

Almost certainly. I see some of them down my local high street, and others who I know to still be in. 6 of them in total who were in it almost 30 years ago!

It should be considered that the number of people who went on lines at this Mission, who bought more than just a book, probably number in the thousands in this time span.

Percentage of still ins compared to "were in but now gone"? I really don't know the exact figures, but it must come to a fraction of 1% or less........

Knowledgeable exs who have worked in Sea Org posts where they have been privy to things like how many emeters, books packages etc..... to supply new releases and other such things have reckoned, as you are probably aware, that there are between 20k and 40k scientologists worldwide.

Some reckon the real figure is closer to 20k.

Scientology these days is relient on wealthy public who are hit for mega donations rather than big membership numbers. The organisation is now becoming asset rich due to it's property purchases, and membership poor.


I wouldn't mind betting that the annual rise in scientology's financial value is more due to an increase in the value of the real estate rather than the money donated.


If I was ever in a conversation with a still in, I would be asking them about the huge difference in their CF numbers and the number of those who are still on line......

 

[Dotey OT]

That's when and why I left as well. But I think that some who have swallowed the hook too deeply just can't spit it as it's set too deep. They lived a life where Scamatology was everything to them and never developed a plan B. To use Scamatology to describe their mental state one could say that it in itself has become their primary ser fac, and for them to be right Scamatology has to be right. JUST HAS TO BE, WHAHHHH!!!! There's the mindset. They have been programmed to "never be reasonable" so they set reason itself aside and fight to their death to adhere to their original beliefs from when they first drank the Kool-Aid. Scamatology set their mindset in stone and it's become their albatross to the bitter end. They'd rather die with it than live without it as they've forgotten how to think without it thinking for them. The "I want my Maypo" generations want their Scamatology, slaves to their graves.

I didn't get in until around 1990. I was on CL V org staff for about seven years shortly after that. I was totally naive to everything until one year into my staff life. Being on staff made a difference on my ability "to see the BIG picture" and ignore all the crap regarding the ineptness of most things management-wise within the choich. I "mashed" the pedal, as they say here in the south, on my ability to function with cognitive dissonance. My soul swam in it. There was the way that staff could be abused, berated, held against your their will, and made to do things demeaning and detrimental to themselves (Insert myself, yourselves, other pronouns.) But I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, the bridge to total freedom. After staff, I hated the fact that there was so much "entheta", I couldn't read a news article, read movie reviews, see a magazine cover in the checkout line, and I hated it. But I still persisted. Not to go into my whole story, but it took a four month sec check, FPRD ethics cycle with the full trimmin's, comm ev and all, before I WOKE UP. But at least I'm not bitter. That's called scarcasm. Not a misspelling.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Actually, TheSneakster, I did meet them. I was the one sent by Kerry to reprieve each one of them, individually. I was running back and forth with individual reprieve orders all day long.

You are making a blanket judgement that they were getting good results and they couldn't get auditing in their orgs. That may have been the case for some, but I heard at least a few different answers like:

"If I leave now, they might send me back again, but if I finish now, I'll be done."
OR
"I was Flag staff. My wife is at Flag. If I get reprieved to PAC, I may never see her again."
OR
"I just want to finish. I've been on here 9 months and I'm toward the end and just want to finish."
OR
(from one who had been on for years and wasn't getting anywhere with it) "No."

That's not all of the answers, just the ones I remember.

Think of that, Hobs. A fear of never seeing your spouse again because of your Church. A fear of being sent back because you don't trust the reprieve is real or will be permanent. Continuing to do something just for the sake of finishing it.

Most of the time, in most orgs, the RPF was a cruel, abusive punishment program and the RPF were treated like DBs and criminals. There were times and places this was not so, but when that happened, the RPF 3434 series was not being followed, and that is church doctrine.

RPFers got auditing from amateur auditors on a program that was a cookie-cutter FPRD program and sec checking for all. It was not an individual program to make gains, that's for sure.

Aha, reality! Thanks for that.

I thought of another 2 reasons why incarcerated RPF slaves would not have wanted to leave prison.

1) Because they were finally starting to attain OT with supernatural powers. After decades and countless hours of auditing in the cult, they had knowingness that the final barrier to OT had been removed and they were about to experience all the glorious gains and miraculous powers that Ron had always promised. They just knew that finally--THIS TIME---they were soooooooooooo close!

2). There is a Russian story (I think perhaps by Dostoyevsky) about a man who was banished to a horrific Siberian gulag for 30 years. When the innocent man was finally was released, he went back to his home town and sought a place to rent. He looked at many flats--but finally found exactly the kind he dreamed of---an extraordinarily tiny one-room studio that only had one tiny window located one meter above his head that overlooked a courtyard with one little tree. The window had security bars on it but he could manage to climb up and look out that window at the tree---exactly like his tiny prison cell with the iron-barred window one meter above his head that overlooked a courtyard with one little tree.

Final comment on why RPF prisoners--when given the chance--don't want to leave. Same reason bankrupt OTs or physically beaten Gold Base execs don't want to blow. It's the same story as the circus employee, whose disgustingly awful job is walking behind the elephants and shoveling their shit, is shocked when asked why they wouldn't want to find a better job: "What?! And give up show business?!"

.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Some of these people have been on lines working with the DSA of different areas, and like DSA type activity. They have to had exposure to a great deal of data, from different sources, from many different people. I know this because I heard some of them say things . . . .

Dotey OT:
Not to pry, but what kind of things are these people hearing and still being able to not question too much and stay in?

I'm curious about the level of cognitive dissonance -- for example, the anxiety in one's mind after hearing LRH did not make it to OT and died of a garden variety stroke -- that people can endure and still stay in.

I wrote this in 2014 on ESMB​

"Five years ago when the Truth Rundown videos and Marty's blog went public, I told a friend the information that was made public would eventually penetrate throughout the whole org via auditor worksheets of PreOTs who had read or seen the stories. First the CS reads the worksheet, then the Ethics Officer handling the PreOT hears all about it, and then the information passes on to nosy execs who are wondering what's happening with the PreOT on the lines.​

​

"My feeling was that you just can't stop ALL this information from penetrating and poisoning the entire tech and exec strata of any advanced org in time. You just can't stop the "entheta" and it will slowly plant seeds of doubt over time."​

What kind of stuff are they hearing nowadays and yet remain in?

What things are they saying or gossiping about? Just mildly curious. Want to be amused.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

But with such a war chest, how long could this go on?

I have opinions about this question. I wrote a couple posts
on the now-archival ESMB website and here's one:

Excerpt from the ESMB thread "The end of scientology!"​

​

"I think future Internet historians will mark Oct-Nov 2013 (Super Power / GAT II releases) as the major turning point and "beginning of the end" of the COS. However, I've studied history enough to realize that many movements and schools of thought have a long shelf lives and are unkillable. Some endure for hundreds of years, despite questionable or sketchy delivery on their ultimate promises.​

​

"Though Rosicrucianism has zero influence in the world, the main thing you can say about it is it's still around in some form or another after 400 years. Just tossing it up as one example for a look."​

​

Rest of my post​

 

[TheSneakster]

You are making a blanket judgement that they were getting good results

I wrote:

Not at all masochistic, if those particular persons felt they were getting good results with their auditing program and wished to complete it before leaving the RPF. ( ... )

See that word "if"? It signifies a qualifier or contingency upon which the rest of clause depends. I made no judgement and only offered a possible alternative explanation of their behavior to your strong suggestion of masochism (originally, the derivation of sexual pleasure from pain or humiliation. Colloquially, simply the apparent enjoyment of pain or humiliation).

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

--snipped for eco, green, global warming & other sustainability concerns---

What kind of stuff are they hearing nowadays and yet remain in?

What things are they saying or gossiping about? Just mildly curious. Want to be amused.

.

GLADYS
Did you hear that 18 of the Ideal Orgs are insolvent and each only
has a few remaining staff that are not even able to eat without
borrowing money from family or going on welfare? I heard they
also closed Foundation orgs at all of the Ideal Orgs so the stats
would look better, even though LRH says it is a high crime! I also
heard that 3 of the Ideal Orgs are going to sell their buildings because
its not only a huge cash drain but also nobody wants to work there
and starve to death.

BILLY BLOWDOWN
I don't know about any of that. Did you hear that we opened up a
new Ideal Org in Siberia up at the Arctic Circle, 4920 miles from
the nearest village!!! Senior managements gave us a briefing that
Siberia is going to be the world's first Clear country, just as LRH predicted.

GLADYS
LRH said that? Hmmmm. I never read that before. Where
did he say that?

BILLY BLOWDOWN
Hey, it's one of those confidential things that you have to be
bonded for and have ethics approval to hear.

GLADYS
Why would that be confidential?

BILLY BLOWDOWN
Oh, because we are going to be making so many Clears
and OTs in Siberia it could attract the attention of Fifth
Invader Forces who would come back to our slave planet
and sabotage Scientology. Ron says it's better to keep
it quiet how huge our expansion is.

GLADYS
Okayyyy, but then why do we all have to go to those
huge events where the highest ever stats and graphs
are flashed on a jumbotron screen for 3 hours?

BILLY BLOWDOWN
Because Ron says as the world's fastest growing religion
we should promote our massive OT wins at the planetary scale!

GLADYS
Wait, isn't that contradictory to keeping our massive
OT wins secret?

BILLY BLOWDOWN
I don't see why you are getting all hung up on stuff
like that. Hey, did you know that our Ideal Org in
Siberia is going to have enough parking spaces to
accomodate 50 million cars of PCs and Students?

GLADYS
Oh wow! That's amazing! With an average of 2 new
Scientologists per car, that means that the Ideal Org in
Siberia will be servicing 100 million people onlines! I
can see now that planetary clearing is finally a reality!

[ GLADYS & BILLY THEN LINE CHARGE AS THEY HIGH FIVE EACH OTHER ]

.​

 

[guanoloco]

Aha, reality! Thanks for that.

I thought of another 2 reasons why incarcerated RPF slaves would not have wanted to leave prison.

1) Because they were finally starting to attain OT with supernatural powers. After decades and countless hours of auditing in the cult, they had knowingness that the final barrier to OT had been removed and they were about to experience all the glorious gains and miraculous powers that Ron had always promised. They just knew that finally--THIS TIME---they were soooooooooooo close!

2). There is a Russian story (I think perhaps by Dostoyevsky) about a man who was banished to a horrific Siberian gulag for 30 years. When the innocent man was finally was released, he went back to his home town and sought a place to rent. He looked at many flats--but finally found exactly the kind he dreamed of---an extraordinarily tiny one-room studio that only had one tiny window located one meter above his head that overlooked a courtyard with one little tree. The window had security bars on it but he could manage to climb up and look out that window at the tree---exactly like his tiny prison cell with the iron-barred window one meter above his head that overlooked a courtyard with one little tree.

Final comment on why RPF prisoners--when given the chance--don't want to leave. Same reason bankrupt OTs or physically beaten Gold Base execs don't want to blow. It's the same story as the circus employee, whose disgustingly awful job is walking behind the elephants and shoveling their shit, is shocked when asked why they wouldn't want to find a better job: "What?! And give up show business?!"

.

Stockholm syndrome


look it up

 

[Zertel]

I didn't get in until around 1990. I was on CL V org staff for about seven years shortly after that. I was totally naive to everything until one year into my staff life. Being on staff made a difference on my ability "to see the BIG picture" and ignore all the crap regarding the ineptness of most things management-wise within the choich. I "mashed" the pedal, as they say here in the south, on my ability to function with cognitive dissonance. My soul swam in it. There was the way that staff could be abused, berated, held against your their will, and made to do things demeaning and detrimental to themselves (Insert myself, yourselves, other pronouns.) But I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, the bridge to total freedom. After staff, I hated the fact that there was so much "entheta", I couldn't read a news article, read movie reviews, see a magazine cover in the checkout line, and I hated it. But I still persisted. Not to go into my whole story, but it took a four month sec check, FPRD ethics cycle with the full trimmin's, comm ev and all, before I WOKE UP. But at least I'm not bitter. That's called scarcasm. Not a misspelling.

Dotey - I gave you an Lol on your comment because you really took a beating before you finally blew. I admire your persistence - Lol