False flag operations and fake personas

Bill

Well-known member
Wow, PAC had stuff like that lying around in generally accessible areas back in 1984? :blink: I guess stuff has really changed since. If one of us did anything like that in the 2000s, we'd get our hands chopped off probably.


I am not trying to make Mike an enemy. But I am openly being somewhat suspicious of him because it seems he is not being very transparent about his activities in OSA. I think everyone who spent enough time in SO did some bad things she/he regrets and would rather forget. I entirely understand that part and the fact that there might be some very personal things in his past that he doesn't want to share.

But Mike was head of OSA and he must have known about the major black hat ops they made and all the other anti-dissident operations that do not involve anything very intimate or personal to Mike. It almost seems as he is more willing to talk about his personal struggles with his former family than he is willing to talk about big OSA ops.

I guess it would not bother me that much if Mike was not such a prominent, leader figure in the ex community. Given the position he has, I think we could expect a bit more transparency from Mike as well as insight into OSA activity and "good tips" on how to avoid OSA traps and protect ourselves from OSA infiltrators etc. At this point I feel like Tory told us more about OSA tactics than Mike did. And she was just a volunteer.

I guess the metaphor I would like to use is: "I'm glad that Mike jumped onto the same bus with us, but I am not fond of seeing him in the driver's seat".
My thoughts on Mike are that, like everyone else in upper management, he had to sign some kind of bond/nda/contract specifying huge monetary penalties if he disclosed "confidential information". So, he can help others expose abuses, crimes, etc and talk about abuses, crimes, etc exposed by others but would incur massive penalties if he personally exposes stuff covered by the NDA -- and possibly even the mere existence of such an NDA.

Don't know, but that might be the basis of his silence on some stuff.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
If you are great enough to run a non-stop criticism crusade against one of the most successful whistleblowers in the cult's ignominious 70 year history, then you must be great enough to "drive the bus" and show how it is supposed to be done. But you do nothing but spectate and criticize and expect people to believe this makes you an expert.
Metaphorical photo depicting @HelluvaHoax! delivering an impassioned rant.

HHyelling.jpg

:coolwink:


Little does he know his target has got him on permanent "ignore" and is not listening
to anything he says. Let's not reveal this to @HelluvaHoax! and spoil our fun. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Metaphorical photo depicting HelluvaHoax! delivering an impassioned rant.
LOL LOL LOL

Give it time. I know it looks like nobody is listening, but. . .

That photo was taken at the Grand Opening of my new affiliate, the COWB. Apparently that photo was taken before all the parishioners arrived to worship.

You are always welcome to visit the Church Of Whistleblower Busters.

Our goal is: "A World Without Squirrel Whistleblowers".

Anyone can easily join our church--if they are qualified. All you have to do is nothing.



.
 
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Bill

Well-known member
My thoughts on Mike are that, like everyone else in upper management, he had to sign some kind of bond/nda/contract specifying huge monetary penalties if he disclosed "confidential information". So, he can help others expose abuses, crimes, etc and talk about abuses, crimes, etc exposed by others but would incur massive penalties if he personally exposes stuff covered by the NDA -- and possibly even the mere existence of such an NDA.

Don't know, but that might be the basis of his silence on some stuff.
Note that this would be the perfect way for Miscavige to direct his minions to attack Mike: "He hasn't come clean, he has secrets!" -- knowing full well Miscavige himself has personally ensured Mike cannot speak about any of that stuff.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
. . . Miscavige himself has personally ensured Mike cannot speak about any of that stuff.
Yes, perfect. Good post.

How about Marty? Oh, no. Not that again. :coolwink:
I normally don't watch Chris Shelton or John Atack videos, but Karakorum piqued my curiosity
about one of them. In that video, John speculates that Miscavige could have threatened Marty
by saying they'd write a letter about Marty's past crimes or misdeeds -- which they probably have
plenty of documentation about from KRs, PC folders and such -- to the agency where Marty and his
wife adopted their child and put their adoption at risk. John reiterates, it's only his speculation.

There was a scene in Louis Theroux's film where a couple OSA goons surprised Louis and Marty
and made threatening comments about his adopted child.
We asked him [Marty] how he felt about his adopted son being the subject of this intimidation attempt.​
“I really took that as sending a message. There was no reason to mention that except to say, he [Marty’s​
son] is now in the mix.”​

The Marty rebuttal videos? The COS signs Marty to make a bunch of video and pays him a multi-million
dollar "talent fee," which would not be unusual at all in the real world. They simply pay it out over
many years to keep a tight "choke chain" around Marty's neck for the rest of his life. Nothing illegal
there.

Marty changing his mind, being hired by the COS, monetizing his sophisticated understanding of all
things Scientology? Common transaction in the real world. Nothing illegal.

Monique reportedly wrote: “I do not have the resources, the time, nor the motivation to litigate
in the Supreme Court of Texas against Scientology’s army of lawyers in the defense of errors made
by attorneys who subordinated my wishes in favor of interests inimical to my own.”

That's the way I'm piecing it together for now. They found Marty's weakest point at the time and
exploited it with their typical threats of ruination.

It's a dirty business, no doubt.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
That's the way I'm piecing it together for now. They found Marty's weakest point at the time and
exploited it with their typical threats of ruination.

It's a dirty business, no doubt.
a dirty business
RATHBUN VS MISCAVIGE
also a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad business
FAIR GAME VS FAIR GAME
- rather reminiscent of -



REFEREE
"Okay gentlemen, let's keep it clean and
may the best man thug win!"



.​
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Note that this would be the perfect way for Miscavige to direct his minions to attack Mike: "He hasn't come clean, he has secrets!" -- knowing full well Miscavige himself has personally ensured Mike cannot speak about any of that stuff.
That could very well be the answer! It could quite satisfactorily explain why every unleashed troll goes after Mike Rinder with that "LOOK! LOOK! LOOK! HE HAS WITHHOLDS!!!" line of attack.

And if Rinder doesn't have any such withholds and therefore offers no withholds as his answer---he can then be attacked for NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION! Thus, proving he does have withholds! LOL

Talking about Rathbun---I can't begin to guess what is in the mind of Rathbun, but here were the odds of the war he fought, making him a prohibitive underdog.

(scale of 1-10)
THUG POWER
Miscavige - 9.6​
Rathbun - 9.6​
DIABOLICAL DEVIOUSNESS
Miscavige - 9.8​
Rathbun - 9.8​
RUTHLESSNESS
Miscavige - 9.9​
Rathbun - 9.9​
(quantifiable assets)
SIZE OF FAIR GAMING ARMY
Miscavige - est. 20,000 membership in COS​
Rathbun - 1​
SIZE OF WAR-CHEST
Miscavige - $ 3,000,000,000​
Rathbun - $ 30 (unutilized credit card limit)​
ULTIMATE WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION
Miscavige - Being able to waste a billion fair game dollars and 19,999 useful idiots who would go to jail before he does.​
Rathbun - A few confused "Indie" Scientologists willing to post mean things about COB on his blog.​
SECRET WEAPON: (ref: Bill's post above)​
Miscavige - Perhaps he knows something Rathbun doesn't want known (e.g. Rathbun's ruthless thuggery) .​
Rathbun - Perhaps his greatest strength (ruthless thuggery) is also his greatest weakness. That happens a lot.​
.
 
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Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
Wow, PAC had stuff like that lying around in generally accessible areas back in 1984? :blink: I guess stuff has really changed since. If one of us did anything like that in the 2000s, we'd get our hands chopped off probably.


I am not trying to make Mike an enemy. But I am openly being somewhat suspicious of him because it seems he is not being very transparent about his activities in OSA. I think everyone who spent enough time in SO did some bad things she/he regrets and would rather forget. I entirely understand that part and the fact that there might be some very personal things in his past that he doesn't want to share.

But Mike was head of OSA and he must have known about the major black hat ops they made and all the other anti-dissident operations that do not involve anything very intimate or personal to Mike. It almost seems as he is more willing to talk about his personal struggles with his former family than he is willing to talk about big OSA ops.

I guess it would not bother me that much if Mike was not such a prominent, leader figure in the ex community. Given the position he has, I think we could expect a bit more transparency from Mike as well as insight into OSA activity and "good tips" on how to avoid OSA traps and protect ourselves from OSA infiltrators etc. At this point I feel like Tory told us more about OSA tactics than Mike did. And she was just a volunteer.

I guess the metaphor I would like to use is: "I'm glad that Mike jumped onto the same bus with us, but I am not fond of seeing him in the driver's seat".
Was laying flat in the top drawer of an old file cabinet. I needed a cabinet for student records etc. someone in the org gave it to me. I don't know where it came from. Had some paper in it that was trash but that particular paper should not have been in it. :LOL:

In the cult lingo: Out Security. o_O
 
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Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
My experience is that anything which had the potential for "scandal" (actual crimes like child molestation, rape, murder) were handled by GO/OSA. If it was something that WOULD involve the police if it got out, then it went automatically to OSA, who would do their damnedest to make sure the org was not deemed to be involved, suppressing all info if possible.

Another example: HAS NYFdn Mark Harrison murders Scientologist celebrity
(Mark was a con-man who made his living by, among other things, passing bad checks. He came into Scn, joined staff, was made HAS, and started 2D with Judy Heiss, a part-time TV actress. Police caught up to him, he went to Judy's apartment, she confronted him about his criminal activities, and he strangled her. GO worked overtime to make sure Scientology connection never made it into the press, including lying to Scientologists that he had been caught, so that people would not go to the police to give information to help catch him. That resulted in him staying loose for a further five years)

....and then there was the famous Michael O'Shea case. Wanted for murder in Boston was put into some exec position at AOLA. I used to chat with him almost everyday at lunch, helluva nice guy. I'm serious, he was. Had a way with people, was a 'people person.' Former manager at a (topless?) bar stabbed his GF to death.

One day I kinda missed his withhold. He was a Vietnam vet, we were talking about combat. I guess that was enough. I didn't see him after that. I knew something was up. Anyway a few weeks later a staff member relayed the story about how the Boston PD came and took him away in handcuffs still in his Hubbard Faux Navy uniform.
 
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Karakorum

Well-known member
Note that this would be the perfect way for Miscavige to direct his minions to attack Mike: "He hasn't come clean, he has secrets!" -- knowing full well Miscavige himself has personally ensured Mike cannot speak about any of that stuff.
Well, he hasn't. If Miscavige is gonna say that water is wet, I am not gonna disagree. "Even a broken clock..."

Let's not play the "What Would Miscavige Do?" game, cause that argument can used against anyone under any pretext. IE: "this would be the perfect way for Miscavige to direct his minions to attack real critics: Accuse them of attacking Mike and being OSA goons". Incidentally I described this strategy in the first post and your post is exactly how an infiltrator using the inquisitor persona would act.

"What Would Miscavige Do?" is a strange game. the only way to win is not to play.





...Also, I am not an american lawyer. But an NDA supposedly preventing you from reporting crimes is null and void even under US law, right?

Was laying flat in the top drawer of an old file cabinet. I needed a cabinet for student records etc. someone in the org gave it to me. I don't know where it came from. Had some paper in it that was trash but that particular paper should not have been in it. :LOL:

In the cult lingo: Out Security. o_O
That's pretty crazy. Someone would swing for this.

I've seen things the other way around - folders that had random unimportant papers or trash instead of the actual contents. But not sensitive stuff lying around. I guess just proves how big of a mess the admin tech is.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Also, I am not an american lawyer. But an NDA supposedly preventing you from reporting crimes is null and void even under US law, right?
That is correct. You cannot be prevented from telling the police or the court about a crime. You MIGHT be prevented from talking about criminal acts to the general public on your blog.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
That is correct. You cannot be prevented from telling the police or the court about a crime. You MIGHT be prevented from talking about criminal acts to the general public on your blog.
Well, certainly if there is an investigation going on and if revealing certain info in public could derail the investigation or tip off the suspects.

But really, is there still an investigation going on for 13 years now that would be preventing Mike from saying anything? Really?!
If there was an investigation years ago and it was closed one way or the other, Mike should be able to say: "Ok guys, this is what I reported, this is the number of the investigation. You can apply to the police to get all the documents related to it under the Freedom of Information Act".
 
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Kalle

troubleshooter



JESUS would get back to the basics - and find out what happened - and THEN only act . . .
 
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Kalle

troubleshooter
JESUS would get back to the basics - and find out what happened - and THEN only act . . .

(SORRY folks, need to learn, how this works . . . !)
 

Bill

Well-known member
Well, certainly if there is an investigation going on and if revealing certain info in public could derail the investigation or tip off the suspects.

But really, is there still an investigation going on for 13 years now that would be preventing Mike from saying anything? Really?!
If there was an investigation years ago and it was closed one way or the other, Mike should be able to say: "Ok guys, this is what I reported, this is the number of the investigation. You can apply to the police to get all the documents related to it under the Freedom of Information Act".
There are a lot of unknowns. You take the unknowns and assume guilt. I take the unknowns and understand we don't know. Have fun.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
Mike actually responded directly to similar questions back in June 2019:

Mike Rinder says
Nope. Covered up numerous incidents up ensure there was no flap. It was my job​
to do that and like all good Scientologist I did it as best I could.​
Mike Rinder says
I have been to the FBI and numerous other law enforcement agencies. I continue​
to try to get them to act. I have never asked for immunity. I have simply told the​
truth without reservation.​

It was a thread about children. You can see it at the links.

I take him at his word . . . and expect that he has many blank
spots in his memory over his 25-30 year career, like we all do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Karakorum

Well-known member
There are a lot of unknowns. You take the unknowns and assume guilt. I take the unknowns and understand we don't know. Have fun.
I take both knowns and unknowns and reach conclusions that I believe are the most likely. Maybe I'm wrong and I am open to changing my mind if new facts come up that would contradict my current train of thought.

Knowns:
  • Mike was head of OSA for many years.
  • This was a real post, not a ceremonial one. People really reported to Mike.
  • We all know what OSA does.
  • Several credible dissenters, including Aaron, have spoken out and mentioned that there were pedophilia cases that were covered up.
  • These cases must have been handled somewhere.
  • I know the heavy out-PR things were not sent to or handled on the continental level. I know, because I was there.
  • Dave has a tendency to create parallel systems of management, going around Hubbardian structures and the admin tech. He also likes to create special, centralized teams at int level to handle various things he deems critical.
  • Critical black hat ops against external threats (including critics) were handled by special int-level OSA coordinated teams that reported to Mike.
Unknowns:
  • Who exactly handled these heavy cases?
  • How come people outside the regular chain of command got involved (According to Aaron, people like Julian) in this and how?
  • What exactly does Mike know, what had he shared with the police and why isn't he sharing more info about OSA tactics in public?
My conclusion, based on the "knowns":
  • The heavy out-PR cases (including pedophilia, rape etc) were handled, just like black hat ops, by special int-level OSA coordinated teams that reported to Mike. If Julian was involved, it was probably because the victim or perpetrator was at AOLA and told the story directly to Julian. Which would explain why OSA would go straight to Julian and over the heads of everyone else in the chain of command (depending on the date, one of these "skipped" persons might have even been me).
The question remains why Mike does not address these issues in depth and why isn't he sharing good advice on how to spot, identity and defeat OSA operatives. I am not going to pretend that I have an answer to that. But I remain rather suspicious of Mike precisely because we do not have the answer to that question.

Again: I'm not saying Mike is a double agent. I'm not saying he is still working for Dave or that he is actively sabotaging the movement. All I am saying is that there are too many unanswered questions. This combined with Mike's former post prevents me from trusting Mike 100%. It also needs to be said that Mike did things he should be proud of, such as his role on the show and with the support for the aftermath foundation.

If there is an NDA that somehow prevents Mike from speaking out, than that NDA is itself a reason to limit trust. Sorry Mike, sometimes people have to be held at arm's length even if its not their fault. Maybe that's the case, maybe not.

Anyway, the thread went pretty far off topic. I think I've said all that there can at this point be said about Mike.
 
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Bill

Well-known member
I take both knowns and unknowns and reach conclusions that I believe are the most likely.

Knowns:
  • Mike was head of OSA for many years.
  • This was a real post, not a ceremonial one. People really reported to Mike.
  • We all know what OSA does.
  • Several credible dissenters, including Aaron, have spoken out and mentioned that there were pedophilia cases that were covered up.
  • These cases must have been handled somewhere.
  • I know the heavy out-PR things were not sent to or handled on the continental level. I know, because I was there.
  • Dave has a tendency to create parallel systems of management, going around Hubbardian structures and the admin tech. He also likes to create special, centralized teams at int level to handle various things he deems critical.
  • Critical black hat ops against external threats (including critics) were handled by special int-level OSA coordinated teams that reported to Mike.
Unknowns:
  • Who exactly handled these cases?
  • How come people outside the regular ethics chain of command got involved (According to Aaron, people like Julian) in this and how?
  • What exactly does Mike know, what had he shared with the police and why isn't he sharing more info about OSA tactics in public?
My conclusion, based on the "knowns":
  • The heavy out-PR cases (including pedophilia, rape etc) were handled, just like black hat ops, by special int-level OSA coordinated teams that reported to Mike. If Julian was involved, it was probably because the victim or perpetrator was at AOLA and told the story directly to Julian. Which would explain why OSA would go straight to Julian and over the heads of everyone else in the chain of command (depending on the date, one of these "skipped" persons might have even been me).
The question remains why Mike does not address these issues in depth and why isn't he sharing good advice on how to spot, identity and defeat OSA operatives. I am not going to pretend that I have an answer to that. But I remain rather suspicious of Mike precisely because we do not have the answer to that question.

Again: I'm not saying Mike is a double agent. I'm not saying he is still working for Dave or that he is actively sabotaging the movement. All I am saying is that there are too many unanswered questions. This combined with Mike's former post prevents me from trusting Mike 100%.
My question is why does Mike owe YOU any answers? FBI, certainly, and, according to Mike, he has. Police, certainly, and according to Mike, he has.

YOU? Why do you deserve anything? Yet YOU demand he MUST tell you everything or "guilty!"

That's my question: Why must Mike respond to you? Really, why?
 
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