Crazy dramatizations abounding

Barile

Well-known member
Didn't I read somewhere that Ingo Swann stated that he got his OT abilities from doing the SHSBC?

Edited: I think it was in his Advanced Mag interview article....
He had to say something they would print. He knew better.
 

haiqu

Active member
Let me get this straight...you're posting on an EX Scientologist board about emeters, Hu666ard, your "religion" and Veda is the fuckwit?
You read that correctly.
 

haiqu

Active member
At one time you did casually state that Scientology had been taken over by the CIA. Rather than search for it, here's an easier to find link to your CIA connections to Current Management thread.

That said, now that you've answered "no," is it reasonable to assume that you think Hubbard mangled the Grade Chart, removed upper OT levels, and wrote pulp science fiction rather than research the upper upper OT levels - which he promised Scientologists he would do - because he didn't care anymore, and already had his monument-building machine in place, and ready to go, so why bother?

And what will you be auditing with your new e-meter? NOTs?

Have you been on solo NOTs for the last 14 years? and now you're addicted to the electrical current?

Oh my. That will make a person testy.
Heh. Thanks for that blast from the past. The most I claimed is that there was a thread to pull ( ref. Data Series), and that the CoS had become a political entity, both of which are self-evident.

It is not reasonable to assume anything, and your continual attempts to put words into my mouth are tiresome.

No, I won't be auditing NOTs anytime soon, and have not done so. I prefer the original OT levels, which I know from personal observation of early OTs will actually do something.
 

Veda

Well-known member
Heh. Thanks for that blast from the past. The most I claimed is that there was a thread to pull ( ref. Data Series),
Link to Haiqu's post where he states that "The church by that time [1979] was already infiltrated..." And there are other similar statements by you. It's not a big deal. You're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to change your opinion. But denying it is silly.

and that the CoS had become a political entity, both of which are self-evident.
It was designed by its founder to be a psychological-political operation, and has been described by some governments as a psycho-political cult masquerading as a religion. (That was first noticed in 1965.)

Link to a wee bit of information on Hubbard's Psycho political design for his movement.

That Scientology is a political organization, not a spiritual one, has been recognized by many people, who have expressed that recognition in various ways.

During the 1960s, Franklin Jones had been an auditor at the New York Org, and then done the OT levels at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles.

In his first book, The Knee of Listening, 1971 edition, chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, he described Scientology at length.

Below is an small except relevant to this discussion.

________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...

But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

The people with whom I worked were chronically seeking release and "exteriorization" from the contents of the mind and from the physical body. This was itself a motivation out of fear and very little wisdom. To be sure, the evidence of exteriorization is conclusive, as it appears in works such as those of Jung. But nowhere in spiritual literature is it offered as the goal of life. Neither is it declared to be a necessary event in every case, prior to perfect knowledge.

In Scientology, however, exteriorization is the object of constant seeking. It is the sign of a period in cosmic history when spiritual beings had great powers and mobile freedom in the spiritual universe. Thus, it is pursued quite apart from any kind of higher wisdom. Exteriorization and various powers are sought for their own sake. Even the phenomenon supposed to be attained at "O.T. 8," the highest stage of Scientology auditing at present, is called "total power."

...It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into...

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.



____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________


The image below is from the cover of a counter culture comix of the early 1970s depicting the scene in San Francisco during the Summer of Love in 1967, when Jesus returned to Earth only to find himself talked into joining staff at the San Francisco Scientology "Org."


Christ returned & joined staff | Ex Scientologist Message Board

The image above does seem to reflect the contentiousness, truculence, and the propensity to "attack" that Scientologists often have. Much more like a political movement that a spiritual one.

Hubbard followed his own confidential instructions in a confidential 1969 Policy Letter (not in the Green Volumes) and used "enemy tactics." The caveat is that he "used enemy tactics" on his own loyal followers.

It is not reasonable to assume anything, and your continual attempts to put words into my mouth are tiresome.
Sheesh. You put the words in your mouth yourself, and I have linked one of several examples above.


No, I won't be auditing NOTs anytime soon, and have not done so. I prefer the original OT levels, which I know from personal observation of early OTs will actually do something.
I had an old friend who did (orignal) OT 7 in 1970 or 1971 and, when he attested, stated that he had already done the process fifteen years earlier. He was briefly in some hot water for that. (It was regarded as an invalidation of the tech.)

Have you considered doing Route One from the Creation of Human Ability?

Here's a link to the antecedent of Route One's Grand Tour from the year 1911. It involves spanning attention, "mock ups" (visualization), specialized mock ups where a person attempts to place a mock up of the same size of a physical object, in the same space as the physical object, and more. The idea is expand consciousness to the planets and, ultimately, to the stars.



Background: During the early 1980s Van Morrison was briefly "on lines,"
and received "Life Repair" auditing.
Was he shown a copy of the Celebrity Center magazine
that featured a poem by John Donne prominently on its first page?
In any event, Morrison apparently liked the auditing,
but did not wish to be associated in any way with Scientology,

and made it clear that he did not belong to any organizations.
 

Veda

Well-known member
The claim was that I had stated Scientology had been taken over by the CIA, which I most certainly did not.
The CIA etc. The bad guys from the government.

Someone, more patient than I, will have to go searching for it.

Referring to what was already quoted, from you: "The church by that time was already infiltrated and everything since then has been an ongoing farce..."

Infiltrated by whom?

Who infiltrates?
 
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Barile

Well-known member
You're being a ... again. The claim was that I had stated Scientology had been taken over by the CIA, which I most certainly did not.

The trouble with you, Darth, is that you see vague similarities as identities in a continuing attempt to make others wrong.

---8<---- snip

Large pile of vague generalities elided. I can't be overwhelmed by your barrages of bullshit, so you may as well give it a rest.

Although I did like the Zap Comix, my preference was Mister Natural. Always was a fan of Robert Crumb.
ya, Mister Natural was cool, but did you know about the Cheap Suit Serenaders? Mr. Crumb plays mandolin and tenor banjo.
In this rendition of "Hula Girl", we are soothed by the voice of the late Bob Brozman, extolling his admiration for his Hapa Haole
Hula girl... as I came to find out from a Hawaiian girlfriend of mine... this was a dig meaning "half white". To be fair, she was born in Hilo,
but was Japanese... making her, Hapa Haole. ( pronounced just like "Howleeeee". ) Keepin' it real.
And yes, the CIA did take it over, you certainly did, and Veda certainly is.




 
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haiqu

Active member
The CIA etc. The bad guys from the government.

Someone, more patient than I, will have to go searching for it.

Referring to what was already quoted, from you: "The church by that time was already infiltrated and everything since then has been an ongoing farce..."

Infiltrated by whom?

Who infiltrates?
If you were, or had ever been, a Scientologist you'd know the answer to that question.

But a small clue for the clueless: The CIA doesn't operate internally within the USA.
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
If you were, or had ever been, a Scientologist you'd know the answer to that question.

But a small clue for the clueless: The CIA doesn't operate internally within the USA.
According to the law they're not supposed to. But I suspect that's ignored by them.
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
>> Poor Heber. His downfall may have been made inevitable when news presenters repeatedly described him as "Scientology's world leader" (and similar wordings).

Hey... I liked Heber. I spent untold hours word clearing his ass on stuff, and he was consistent and a serious student. That respect fell to shit when he was in the GO at CC and we were all supposed to get this flu shot, because of... I don't remember the details. I asked him what about the chain of custody on that stuff, how do we know where it came from and how do we know it was not tampered with. Well, he had no fucking idea but asserted it was no problemo, take the shot. As I recall, Karen looked a little skeptical too... dintja? About a week or so later, he asked me if I'd taken the shot, I said, "fuck no". You know that look you get when you sneeze in somebodies direction while they are eating a delicious piece of pie?
:rose:
 

Zertel

Well-known member
Link to Haiqu's post where he states that "The church by that time [1979] was already infiltrated..." And there are other similar statements by you. It's not a big deal. You're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to change your opinion. But denying it is silly.



It was designed by its founder to be a psychological-political operation, and has been described by some governments as a psycho-political cult masquerading as a religion. (That was first noticed in 1965.)

Link to a wee bit of information on Hubbard's Psycho political design for his movement.

That Scientology is a political organization, not a spiritual one, has been recognized by many people, who have expressed that recognition in various ways.

During the 1960s, Franklin Jones had been an auditor at the New York Org, and then done the OT levels at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles.

In his first book, The Knee of Listening, 1971 edition, chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, he described Scientology at length.

Below is an small except relevant to this discussion.

________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...

But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

The people with whom I worked were chronically seeking release and "exteriorization" from the contents of the mind and from the physical body. This was itself a motivation out of fear and very little wisdom. To be sure, the evidence of exteriorization is conclusive, as it appears in works such as those of Jung. But nowhere in spiritual literature is it offered as the goal of life. Neither is it declared to be a necessary event in every case, prior to perfect knowledge.

In Scientology, however, exteriorization is the object of constant seeking. It is the sign of a period in cosmic history when spiritual beings had great powers and mobile freedom in the spiritual universe. Thus, it is pursued quite apart from any kind of higher wisdom. Exteriorization and various powers are sought for their own sake. Even the phenomenon supposed to be attained at "O.T. 8," the highest stage of Scientology auditing at present, is called "total power."

...It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into...

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.



____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________


The image below is from the cover of a counter culture comix of the early 1970s depicting the scene in San Francisco during the Summer of Love in 1967, when Jesus returned to Earth only to find himself talked into joining staff at the San Francisco Scientology "Org."


Christ returned & joined staff | Ex Scientologist Message Board

The image above does seem to reflect the contentiousness, truculence, and the propensity to "attack" that Scientologists often have. Much more like a political movement that a spiritual one.

Hubbard followed his own confidential instructions in a confidential 1969 Policy Letter (not in the Green Volumes) and used "enemy tactics." The caveat is that he "used enemy tactics" on his own loyal followers.



Sheesh. You put the words in your mouth yourself, and I have linked one of several examples above.




I had an old friend who did (orignal) OT 7 in 1970 or 1971 and, when he attested, stated that he had already done the process fifteen years earlier. He was briefly in some hot water for that. (It was regarded as an invalidation of the tech.)

Have you considered doing Route One from the Creation of Human Ability?

Here's a link to the antecedent of Route One's Grand Tour from the year 1911. It involves spanning attention, "mock ups" (visualization), specialized mock ups where a person attempts to place a mock up of the same size of a physical object, in the same space as the physical object, and more. The idea is expand consciousness to the planets and, ultimately, to the stars.



Background: During the early 1980s Van Morrison was briefly "on lines,"
and received "Life Repair" auditing.
Was he shown a copy of the Celebrity Center magazine
that featured a poem by John Donne prominently on its first page?
In any event, Morrison apparently liked the auditing,
but did not wish to be associated in any way with Scientology,

and made it clear that he did not belong to any organizations.
I appreciate that quote from Franklin Jones. I quit soon after "attesting to Dianetic Clear" because of the price increases around 1980 so I didn't engage in the OT levels. Rather than just a mockery of the Xenu story it gives a more intellectual look at what it was about.

Along with the 1911 "processes" it shows how people like scientologists could get sucked into persuing a seemingly scientific investigation of the mind and spirit. Any group of intelligent men and women, probably led by a charismatic leader, could devise a series of "mental procedures" with possible changes in a person's subjective reality convincing them that they were onto something worthwhile.
 
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Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
I appreciate that quote from Franklin Jones. I quit soon after "attesting to Dianetic Clear" because of the price increases around 1980 so I didn't engage in the OT levels. Rather than just a mockery of the Xenu story it gives a more intellectual look at what it was about.

Along with the 1911 "processes" it shows how people like scientologists could get sucked into persuing a seemingly scientific investigation of the mind and spirit. Any group of intelligent men and women, probably led by a charismatic leader, could devise a series of "mental procedures" with possible changes in a person's subjective reality convincing them that they were onto something worthwhile.
"....But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust...."

Wow. That's the heart of it. Bull's eye.
 
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