Crazy dramatizations abounding

haiqu

Member
In the past week I've come across some wacky theories. One guy I've been in contact with claims that LRH was swapped out in 1964 after the FBI raid in which the materials and meters were confiscated by the FBI, which is a bit of a stretch.

The other is some crazy German guy called Andreas M. B. Gross who has not only written a whole series of books expounding a theory that LRH was replaced during his visit to New York in 1972 but also has a website dedicated to the subject. You can find it at Blog about the Original, Unaltered Scientology of 1972 – Keeping Scientology Working – It is your responsibility if you're into conspiracy theories.

In contrast to this, Pierre Ethier states that LRH delivered the New Vitality Rundown in 1975 and that he has heard the original master tapes and can verify it was Hubbard. Janis Gillham Grady in her interview with Dave LaCroix at Podcast 11 Janis Gillham Grady - Commodore's Messenger also states categorically that LRH was still the same guy on returning to the ship in 1973. It's at about 1:12:00 in the interview if you can't be bothered hearing the whole thing. Since she was one of the original four Commodore's Messengers, she'd know.

As a staff member in 1977 I saw new tech and policy issues coming down the pike on a fairly regular basis, and there was an especially large burst of them in 1978 as we all know. So where the fuck are these dramatizations coming from? Honestly, some people just can't confront reality.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Honestly, some people just can't confront reality.
I think its exactly this. "Motivated reasoning". Some people want to believe that everything evil comes from Davey alone, so they need to find a way to exonerate Ron. But they know Ron did stupid and abusive things (especially in the later part of his life), so they come up with these body-snatching theories.

That's my interpretation. At the same time, I think it is reasonable to assume that Hubbard did lose his faculties somewhere in the mid 80s and that there might have been a period of time when he was suffering dementia/insanity/Alzheimer and "his" orders were getting written by Dave and/or Pat.
 

Type4_PTS

Well-known member
If Scientology worked as advertised all the issues that David Miscavige has could have been easily resolved.

On the contrary, his crazy sociopathic personality seems to be at least partly a byproduct of how he was raised by the CoS.
Per his father, he wasn't at all that way as a child.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
If Scientology worked as advertised all the issues that David Miscavige has could have been easily resolved.

On the contrary, his crazy sociopathic personality seems to be at least partly a byproduct of how he was raised by the CoS.
Per his father, he wasn't at all that way as a child.
If Scientology worked as advertised David Miscavige would've been ferreted out a long time ago.

I especially like the theories of Miscavige corrupting the comm line to Hu666ard to fool Elron Elray.

When you're exterior with full perception why do you need a messenger?
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
If it worked as advertised Hubbs would still be running the show

Actually, think about it. If it worked the physical universe and this spacetime experience wouldn't even be here.

How so?

Remember when he wrote "for too long I've born it alone" - "it" being the onus of Clearing the planet. This is the sales pitch on why we all needed to train because the logistics of Ron being the single auditor were too great.

However, if one really became Cause of Matter, Energy, Space and Time one could be anywhere at anytime on the wholetrack however many times as one wanted to be. Buddha was at multiple locations simultaneously.

Being OT means being Cause over MEST. MEST is merely a consideration.

Ron, if he really were researching advanced levels, would've figured that out. Having figured that out - no matter at what point on the Time track of the wholetrack - even if it's some time in the future - it doesn't matter - Time, after all, is a consideration. Even if it were carved in stone Ron would be at Cause over it.

All he would need to do would be to clone himself or replicate himself any number of times and go to the beginning of the Time track and single-handedly audit and train each and every one of us to full OT.

Since this hasn't happened, even at a lesser order of magnitude, that means that the whole contraption is a lie...or, at the very least, not workable.



In short, the dev-t of existence would've been as-ised already and the whole shebang pointless and already over with. We'd be on to different games already.
 

La La Lou Lou

Well-known member
So where the fuck are these dramatizations coming from? Honestly, some people just can't confront reality.
[/QUOTE]
I think Hubbard was pretty crazy from the start, but at some point in the 60s or 70s he flipped and went 'type3' seeing beetees crawling over his body like a bad LSD trip and never recovered. Then the ship started to really hit the fan and ethics teck was invented to punish everyone else. Early on in the London days he was quite open to ideas and listened to auditors, then something happened and he saw himself as the only person capable of getting the job done, later still he just gave up and was happy to get Christmas presents from his adoring fans and poverty stricken orgs, and to ride around on his bikes etc.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

If it worked as advertised Hubbs would still be running the show.
.
PirateAndBum, if you don't have any previous commitments, please consider the following:

If Hubbs "comes back" (as advertised) I will be routing back in and looking for a good twin--an uptone being with high havingness and a high OCA score---who doesn't go all Nazi-comlag-flunker on asking for definitions during star-rate checkouts!​
*. (terminals with LSD history or thick ethics folders need not apply!)
**. (applicants must provide their own demo kits, so that my F/Ning study flow is not interrupted with annoying CSWs to "borrow some of my used batteries")
 
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Veda

Well-known member
In the past week I've come across some wacky theories. One guy I've been in contact with claims that LRH was swapped out in 1964 after the FBI raid in which the materials and meters were confiscated by the FBI, which is a bit of a stretch.

The other is some crazy German guy called Andreas M. B. Gross who has not only written a whole series of books expounding a theory that LRH was replaced during his visit to New York in 1972 but also has a website dedicated to the subject. You can find it at Blog about the Original, Unaltered Scientology of 1972 – Keeping Scientology Working – It is your responsibility if you're into conspiracy theories.

In contrast to this, Pierre Ethier states that LRH delivered the New Vitality Rundown in 1975 and that he has heard the original master tapes and can verify it was Hubbard. Janis Gillham Grady in her interview with Dave LaCroix at Podcast 11 Janis Gillham Grady - Commodore's Messenger also states categorically that LRH was still the same guy on returning to the ship in 1973. It's at about 1:12:00 in the interview if you can't be bothered hearing the whole thing. Since she was one of the original four Commodore's Messengers, she'd know.

As a staff member in 1977 I saw new tech and policy issues coming down the pike on a fairly regular basis, and there was an especially large burst of them in 1978 as we all know. So where the fuck are these dramatizations coming from? Honestly, some people just can't confront reality.
Do you still think Scientology Inc. was taken over by the CIA? or have you changed your mind about that?

If you still believe it was taken over, can you tell us the year(s) when that occurred?

Thanks.

:scratch: P.S. Assuming you still believe the CIA took over Scientology, what would have been their motivation for having done so?

Since it was Hubbard who downgraded "Clear," and butchered the middle Grade Chart and, also, removed the original upper OT levels from the Grade Chart, do you think Hubbard might have been contacted by the CIA, and made a deal, to withhold the colossal power of Scientology tech, in exchange for an operation that functioned as his fan club and monument-building and preservation society, but had a "bridge" that went nowhere?

Is that why Hubbard started writing pulp science fiction again, after, years earlier, emphatically stating that he didn't wish to be identified with pulp science fiction?

How do you account for Hubbard writing eleven pulp science fiction novels during the time when he was supposed to be researching the upper upper OT levels?

What is the reality that people can't confront?

That Hubbard had a hidden agenda from the very beginning?

Why did he use his "brainwashing" manual on his own followers?

Was his real goal different than his stated, publicized, goal?

Why did Hubbard let his wife take the rap for him and go to prison in his place? (Cult leaders Sun Myung Moon and Lyndon LaRouche both had legal problems, but took it like men, and didn't throw their wives under the bus and run and hide.) Why was Hubbard such a coward? (Moon and LaRouche both served their time in federal prison, were released, and then continued as the leaders of their respective cults.)

Why didn't Hubbard make plain his wishes for who would be his successor?

Why did he have Pat Broeker as his number one assistant?

Pat Broeker lived with L. Ron Hubbard for years.
Here he holds up a big date to impress the Scientologists who have just been told that Hubbard causatively discarded his healthy body
(a nice way of saying he committed suicide). The Scientologists applauded and cheered.



How did Miscavige become - in effect - the general manager of Scientology?, with Hubbard's apparent blessings (According to Mike Rinder, Hubbard had an affectionate nickname for Miscavige, calling him "Misc.")


From a 1985 interview of Martin Samuels, Mission Holder who also started the Delphian School in Oregon:

_________________________Begin quote_________________________


Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns...

The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He's let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur; inevitably, though, he'd come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was '82, '83, when he "raped" his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

And look at this pattern... He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as "managers"; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who "is this OT, author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior," surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said, "My God! I didn't know!" Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place...



_____________________________________End quote_____________________________________


Crazy dramatizations abounding? Wacky theories?

Tell us, oh Haiqu, what is the reality that can't be confronted?
 

Veda

Well-known member
I never thought that. You're clearly a fuckwit.
At one time you did casually state that Scientology had been taken over by the CIA. Rather than search for it, here's an easier to find link to your CIA connections to Current Management thread.

That said, now that you've answered "no," is it reasonable to assume that you think Hubbard mangled the Grade Chart, removed upper OT levels, and wrote pulp science fiction rather than research the upper upper OT levels - which he promised Scientologists he would do - because he didn't care anymore, and already had his monument-building machine in place, and ready to go, so why bother?

And what will you be auditing with your new e-meter? NOTs?

Have you been on solo NOTs for the last 14 years? and now you're addicted to the electrical current?

Oh my. That will make a person testy.
 

JustSheila

Well-known member
Good thread conversation. There are so many rumors that swirled around about Hubbard. There were some inconsistencies that troubled Scientologists, like the sudden change in Hubbard’s writing style between the late 60s and early 70s, but that could have just been a different transcription and rewrite editor.

Then there was the story his valet often told about Hubbard owning two entirely differently sized shoes that were otherwise identical. Two Hubbards? A Hub-Doub(le)? :hmm:

Sometimes he was barely seen foe months or even years, but he was seen. By Dr. Denk, David Mayo, by some Messengers and others. Yes, he could be charming one minute and a raging lunatic the next and it was still Hubbard.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
At one time you did casually state that Scientology had been taken over by the CIA. Rather than search for it, here's an easier to find link to your CIA connections to Current Management thread.
I think everyone is entitled to change their minds after 7+ years. Having said that, I see no reason to call each other names on the forum either.
 

Barile

Well-known member
You have considered that Operation Snow White was "allowed" to happen, right? That was what flashed before my eyes as soon as I
heard the party had come to us. I don't think they've been infiltrated/taken over, I'm certain of it. Seriously, is this still even a question?

On a conspiratorial note... when Hal Puthoff and Ingo Swann were getting HGC auditing at CC, I had a pc ( no other auditing or training )
that was a Lt. Col in the OSS during WWII. Claimed he was the highest ranking officer at the time and was trusted and behind German lines due to his relation to Wilhelm II. His junior at the time... Henry Kissinger. He made a few remarks about Kissinger in session, the kind you wouldn't want to have repeated on the 6 o'clock news. From that time on, the folder went from me, to the c/s ( Ray ) to Heber (Guardians office ). It stayed in Heber's office until the next session, when I picked it up from him. Rinse and repeat. I checked out his war record not long ago, just out of curiousity. It checked out.

To be fair, I always liked Heber's rendition of "Waltzing Mathilda". It had a certain, verve.
 

Veda

Well-known member
You have considered that Operation Snow White was "allowed" to happen, right? That was what flashed before my eyes as soon as I heard the party had come to us. I don't think they've been infiltrated/taken over, I'm certain of it. Seriously, is this still even a question?
Just as "a mind is a terrible thing to waste," I suppose that a "psycho-political cult" is also "a terrible thing to waste." The question is, if the CIA etc. have it, what are they doing with it?

Scientology's upper "Bridge" was a dud. I had conversations with many - circa 1960s - Scientology OTs, and with a high ranking tech person at AOLA, shortly after the release of NOTs. For a brief period, it was safe to admit that the old OT levels did not work. It was OK to - quietly - admit it, because now there was NOTs. That was 1978. Now NOTs has been around for over forty years and it's a flop.

If some group took over Scientology Inc., they must know that. For what, then, would it be used? Intelligence ("blackmail") gathering? Experimentation?

The fundamentals of Scientology Inc. have not changed much since the early 1970s. The model is pretty much the same. The shady 1993 tax deal encourages outrageous fundraising, and Miscavige knows there are no more unreleased OT levels, and the upper "Bridge" is pointless.

"Mental healing"/"Total Freedom" was always a veneer and an excuse for gaining access to people's minds to do other things.

Still, there are some oddities, and valid questions, a couple of which I posed to Haiqu, in an earlier post, to which his response was schoolyard name calling.

On a conspiratorial note... when Hal Puthoff and Ingo Swann were getting HGC auditing at CC,
That was a strange time. 1973. Ingo Swann wasn't being very covert. He gave an interview to Advance! magazine.

Ingo seemed to be loved wherever he went in Scientology, and he enjoyed being a "celebrity," and hanging out at Celebrity Center, and being "theta."

By accident, on a car radio, I once heard him debate James Randi (the debunker of psychics), and Randi loved him too.

The first 60% of the video is a Scientologist trying to convert Randi.
The last 40% is a non-Scientologist asking Randi about Hubbard.


One of Ingo's favorite items of Hubbard's writing was a thin black booklet titled, if I recall correctly, Control and mechanics of 8-C. It was about good (effortless) control and not having (mental) "ridges." It was one of many books and booklets that Hubbard's editor, John Sanborn, liked, and showcased, just as he had liked parts of the Phoenix Lectures and showcased that in the book titled the Phoenix Lectures.

Sanborn was publishing what he regarded as (in his words) the (1950s) "peak brilliance" of Hubbard's work, even though Hubbard had, by then, recreated himself as the "Commodore," and created Xenu and the Sea Org - and the staff at the Advanced Org in Los Angeles were dressing up as "whole track implanters" to "re-stimulate" the "wogs" just enough to make them compliant to Scientology body routers, recruiters, and registrars, and get them on the Bridge to Total Freedom, of course.


And then here came Ingo.


During early 1973, I had a long conversation with Ingo Swann, and none of it had anything to do with Scientology, but, while we were talking, someone interrupted and asked if he was a Scientologist, and he answered "yes." Ingo was not pleased to have been asked that question. He did not want to be known as a Scientologist outside of Scientology circles.

After quitting Scientology in '82/'83. Ingo, (from what I have heard) was briefly involved with David Mayo's Advanced Ability Center and, then, got into (ex Elmira, New York Mission Holder) Harry Palmer's Avatar.

Ingo actually did the whole Avatar program, and liked it.

He had also participated in other Self Help and New Age subjects/movements prior to his involvement with Scientology.

He, from accounts, after leaving Scientology Inc., when he could speak freely, liked the lower grades in Scientology, and thought the lower grades returned to him his natural psychic abilities which he had as a child, and lost as a young adult. He described Scientology's OT levels as "disappointing."

The CIA etc. investigated many subjects, going back to at least the period of World War II. They checked out psychics, the Rosicrucians, gypsy fortune tellers, et al. But that doesn't mean they took them over.

I can see where Scientology Inc. would have been checked out, but I doubt if the government Spooks wanted it.

As a side note, Hubbard was aware of Ingo also, and, in his confidential 1973 missive Intelligence, Its Role, may have been responding to a question about why Scientology didn't use OTs in its covert Intelligence activities.

Hubbard dismissed the idea of using psychic powers in his spying and dirty tricks activities. It's as though he knew the promise of OT abilities from the OT levels was a ruse, and he didn't want it messing up his - at the time - smoothly running cloak and dagger operation.

I had a pc ( no other auditing or training ) that was a Lt. Col in the OSS during WWII. Claimed he was the highest ranking officer at the time and was trusted and behind German lines due to his relation to Wilhelm II. His junior at the time... Henry Kissinger. He made a few remarks about Kissinger in session, the kind you wouldn't want to have repeated on the 6 o'clock news. From that time on, the folder went from me, to the c/s ( Ray ) to Heber (Guardians office ). It stayed in Heber's office until the next session, when I picked it up from him. Rinse and repeat. I checked out his war record not long ago, just out of curiosity. It checked out.
Yes, but it seems a stretch to say that the government Spooks took over Scientology Inc. because an occasional military or government person might get some auditing.

To be fair, I always liked Heber's rendition of "Waltzing Mathilda". It had a certain, verve.
Poor Heber. His downfall may have been made inevitable when news presenters repeatedly described him as "Scientology's world leader" (and similar wordings). People started thinking that - with Hubbard gone - he was the actual leader of Scientology. Miscavige didn't like that, and Heber eventually disappeared. And there was no "President of the Church of Scientology" to replace him. Instead, there was only a "Vice President of the Church of Scientology," just to make sure that everyone knew that Miscavige was the Boss.
 

La La Lou Lou

Well-known member
If we're in the business of inventing conspiracies, pretending for a moment that was some workable teck, how about Dave took all the workable tech, knowing that the cult was finished, and gave it to the NOI. The cult gets closed down but NOI carries on with all the teck, and no one would think of looking there. NOI carries on the good work, clears the planet and this sector of the universe.

Or all the teck is covertly allowed to be stolen by various squirrel groups, Mayo, Dror centre etc the cherch gets closed down, the stash of cassettes stays hidden under the mountain, also hiding the tech somewhere else and the cult continues in the squirrel groups, who haven't been destroyed by the CIA KGB ETC. If the cherch carries on then they can close down the competition and flourish.

Hubbard was very sneaky, Miss Carriage is too, it could have been the plan.

I just don't think it was.

But as the teck doesn't work then it makes no difference what they are all up to, it just doesn't work and never did.

But then if the stuff worked where the hell is the flounder? Shouldn't he of materialised by now? He should be middle aged by now.
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
Didn't I read somewhere that Ingo Swann stated that he got his OT abilities from doing the SHSBC?

Edited: I think it was in his Advanced Mag interview article....
 
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Chuck J.

Mmmm, Catnip !
If we're in the business of inventing conspiracies, pretending for a moment that was some workable teck, how about Dave took all the workable tech, knowing that the cult was finished, and gave it to the NOI. The cult gets closed down but NOI carries on with all the teck, and no one would think of looking there. NOI carries on the good work, clears the planet and this sector of the universe.

Or all the teck is covertly allowed to be stolen by various squirrel groups, Mayo, Dror centre etc the cherch gets closed down, the stash of cassettes stays hidden under the mountain, also hiding the tech somewhere else and the cult continues in the squirrel groups, who haven't been destroyed by the CIA KGB ETC. If the cherch carries on then they can close down the competition and flourish.

Hubbard was very sneaky, Miss Carriage is too, it could have been the plan.

I just don't think it was.

But as the teck doesn't work then it makes no difference what they are all up to, it just doesn't work and never did.

But then if the stuff worked where the hell is the flounder? Shouldn't he of materialised by now? He should be middle aged by now.
The "Admiral" is A.W.O.L.

If I'm running the cult - he's getting RPF'd for effing up a simple operation. His ego (his gigantic, massive, so large it has its own gravitational field ego) got it the way.

All he had to do was make auditors, make auditors, make auditors, train people, train people, train people on the down low, all quiet-like for 40 or 50 years and this planet would've been "in the bag." But no, he had to be the big-shot para-military leader Commodore. Pure hubris.

For all his blather about Bolivar and his "Know Best" strateegery. All he had to do was follow Sun Tzu straight out of the book.

Just my 2c.



(To clarify: I ain't even saying $cientology or $cientologists should be in charge or that OT levels even work. But I am saying damn near anything would be better than the psycho political situation we have.)
 
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Barile

Well-known member
Just as "a mind is a terrible thing to waste," I suppose that a "psycho-political cult" is also "a terrible thing to waste." The question is, if the CIA etc. have it, what are they doing with it?

Scientology's upper "Bridge" was a dud. I had conversations with many - circa 1960s - Scientology OTs, and with a high ranking tech person at AOLA, shortly after the release of NOTs. For a brief period, it was safe to admit that the old OT levels did not work. It was OK to - quietly - admit it, because now there was NOTs. That was 1978. Now NOTs has been around for over forty years and it's a flop.

If some group took over Scientology Inc., they must know that. For what, then, would it be used? Intelligence ("blackmail") gathering? Experimentation?

The fundamentals of Scientology Inc. have not changed much since the early 1970s. The model is pretty much the same. The shady 1993 tax deal encourages outrageous fundraising, and Miscavige knows there are no more unreleased OT levels, and the upper "Bridge" is pointless.

"Mental healing"/"Total Freedom" was always a veneer and an excuse for gaining access to people's minds to do other things.

Still, there are some oddities, and valid questions, a couple of which I posed to Haiqu, in an earlier post, to which his response was schoolyard name calling.



That was a strange time. 1973. Ingo Swann wasn't being very covert. He gave an interview to Advance! magazine.

Ingo seemed to be loved wherever he went in Scientology, and he enjoyed being a "celebrity," and hanging out at Celebrity Center, and being "theta."

By accident, on a car radio, I once heard him debate James Randi (the debunker of psychics), and Randi loved him too.

The first 60% of the video is a Scientologist trying to convert Randi.
The last 40% is a non-Scientologist asking Randi about Hubbard.


One of Ingo's favorite items of Hubbard's writing was a thin black booklet titled, if I recall correctly, Control and mechanics of 8-C. It was about good (effortless) control and not having (mental) "ridges." It was one of many books and booklets that Hubbard's editor, John Sanborn, liked, and showcased, just as he had liked parts of the Phoenix Lectures and showcased that in the book titled the Phoenix Lectures.

Sanborn was publishing what he regarded as (in his words) the (1950s) "peak brilliance" of Hubbard's work, even though Hubbard had, by then, recreated himself as the "Commodore," and created Xenu and the Sea Org - and the staff at the Advanced Org in Los Angeles were dressing up as "whole track implanters" to "re-stimulate" the "wogs" just enough to make them compliant to Scientology body routers, recruiters, and registrars, and get them on the Bridge to Total Freedom, of course.


And then here came Ingo.


During early 1973, I had a long conversation with Ingo Swann, and none of it had anything to do with Scientology, but, while we were talking, someone interrupted and asked if he was a Scientologist, and he answered "yes." Ingo was not pleased to have been asked that question. He did not want to be known as a Scientologist outside of Scientology circles.

After quitting Scientology in '82/'83. Ingo, (from what I have heard) was briefly involved with David Mayo's Advanced Ability Center and, then, got into (ex Elmira, New York Mission Holder) Harry Palmer's Avatar.

Ingo actually did the whole Avatar program, and liked it.

He had also participated in other Self Help and New Age subjects/movements prior to his involvement with Scientology.

He, from accounts, after leaving Scientology Inc., when he could speak freely, liked the lower grades in Scientology, and thought the lower grades returned to him his natural psychic abilities which he had as a child, and lost as a young adult. He described Scientology's OT levels as "disappointing."

The CIA etc. investigated many subjects, going back to at least the period of World War II. They checked out psychics, the Rosicrucians, gypsy fortune tellers, et al. But that doesn't mean they took them over.

I can see where Scientology Inc. would have been checked out, but I doubt if the government Spooks wanted it.

As a side note, Hubbard was aware of Ingo also, and, in his confidential 1973 missive Intelligence, Its Role, may have been responding to a question about why Scientology didn't use OTs in its covert Intelligence activities.

Hubbard dismissed the idea of using psychic powers in his spying and dirty tricks activities. It's as though he knew the promise of OT abilities from the OT levels was a ruse, and he didn't want it messing up his - at the time - smoothly running cloak and dagger operation.



Yes, but it seems a stretch to say that the government Spooks took over Scientology Inc. because an occasional military or government person might get some auditing.



Poor Heber. His downfall may have been made inevitable when news presenters repeatedly described him as "Scientology's world leader" (and similar wordings). People started thinking that - with Hubbard gone - he was the actual leader of Scientology. Miscavige didn't like that, and Heber eventually disappeared. And there was no "President of the Church of Scientology" to replace him. Instead, there was only a "Vice President of the Church of Scientology," just to make sure that everyone knew that Miscavige was the Boss.
>> Just as "a mind is a terrible thing to waste," I suppose that a "psycho-political cult" is also "a terrible thing to waste." The question is, if the CIA etc. have it, what are they doing with it?

Elementary, my dear Watson. You said the words yourself, "psycho-political". What causes large populations to refrain from eating meat on Fridays? Confessing their sins on Saturday? Hanging a talisman of a dead guy nailed to a cross around their neck while proclaiming that said dead guy died for the sins of the world? Let me think... could it be... social conditioning, peer pressure, repetition of information, torture, fear, expulsion from heaven, flames of hell, the onslaught of the visigoths? Well, ya, a little bit, but mostly control by belief and control of response.
We were all, if I may be so bold as to assume, hoodwinked into some degree of belief. On the low end, curiosity, on the high end, complete abandonment of any social norm in favor of the printed green and red, including torture and accessory to murder. I think we can be somewhat comfortable with that assessment. So what WAS Scientology good at in it's heyday? From my vantage point, I would say it was a fine example of propaganda, control of belief, control of response without drugs with a long term verifiable effect, and an overhaul in language and perception of right, wrong, good, evil. A sequestering from typical societal beliefs. If nothing else, it is a shining example of a modern religion, based on the presumption of a god and promises of future salvation, punctuated by the fear of death. It was/is a false religion to end all false religions, and let's admit, we all fucking believed it, for whatever period of time to a greater or lessor degree. In some context, in some histories, some scholars may say, oh that sounds very conspiratorial. Does all that sound conspiratorial to you, in hindsight?
As a cult, existing in a fishbowl, roundly rejected by society for various reasons, scorned by most, believed by few, unknown to some living under a rock, it still lives and is financed by the faithful, who still believe, or at least believe that their continued association is for whatever reason, necessary for their well being, it is a social science experiment that is the wet dream for anyone needing to determine the effectiveness of their propaganda agenda, a test of the limits of credulity, and assessment of the breaking point of belief and control failure. It's a failure analysis lab for mind control and it's all distinct from any intel or military budget. It's MkUltra with a new suit. Just wear the mask, six feet bro, just get the shot, get a chance to win a lottery, free fries with every injection, and here comes the ufo report... need I say more? Really? Really?
Where are the limits of credulity? Are there any? What are they doing with it? They are doing you, bro.

>> Yes, but it seems a stretch to say that the government Spooks took over Scientology Inc. because an occasional military or government person might get some auditing.

My conclusion is not based on my personal experience with a spook who could have been the original James Bond, it's more of an overall assessment of the history of propaganda and an observation of what we are being told to believe. This was just an interesting anecdote.
Also, as a side note, I include True Skeptic in the same petri dish as True Believer. They both operate on a known algorithm, the same algorithm, with a binary outcome.

>> The CIA etc. investigated many subjects, going back to at least the period of World War II. They checked out psychics, the Rosicrucians, gypsy fortune tellers, et al. But that doesn't mean they took them over.

Ummmmm, well, there was this guy, Dr. Ernesto A. Moshe Montgomery documented in the book "Psychic Spy" by Clifford L. Linedecker
ISBN: 0-385-11457-5
He was recruited into MI5 British Intel in 1940 and spent the entire war in Jamaica. He only function was as a psychic spy and his story is ummm, thought provoking. I'll leave it at that, but I don't recall CIA contractors in the church mentioning that while being funded at SRI. It goes beyond "checking it out".

>> Hubbard dismissed the idea of using psychic powers in his spying and dirty tricks activities. It's as though he knew the promise of OT abilities from the OT levels was a ruse, and he didn't want it messing up his - at the time - smoothly running cloak and dagger operation.

I think he relied on word of mouth by the believers, to spread tales of abilities beyond coincidence. He knew that would be the case, just by reading success stories. That's what those things were, "unsolicited" propaganda. "I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance...". Sure ya did, just don't get into an accident.

>> I can see where Scientology Inc. would have been checked out, but I doubt if the government Spooks wanted it.

They wanted the lab, they wanted to see what would happen when X was done. They wanted to know what would happen when you chained up
a believer, took everything from him, how that would strengthen his belief in the system. They wanted it very badly, and I contend they got it, lock stock and barrel. IRS dude on the inside? Coincidence... nothing more.

>> Poor Heber. His downfall may have been made inevitable when news presenters repeatedly described him as "Scientology's world leader" (and similar wordings).

Hey... I liked Heber. I spent untold hours word clearing his ass on stuff, and he was consistent and a serious student. That respect fell to shit when he was in the GO at CC and we were all supposed to get this flu shot, because of... I don't remember the details. I asked him what about the chain of custody on that stuff, how do we know where it came from and how do we know it was not tampered with. Well, he had no fucking idea but asserted it was no problemo, take the shot. As I recall, Karen looked a little skeptical too... dintja? About a week or so later, he asked me if I'd taken the shot, I said, "fuck no". You know that look you get when you sneeze in somebodies direction while they are eating a delicious piece of pie?

It's entirely probable that things will get really tight on the inside, as time goes by, tyranical edicts are drawn, court cases inform public opinion, and shit otherwise hits the fan. Doesn't matter, that's not the issue. The issue is how do they retain allegiance and control of belief and behavior. That is the double slit experiment. There are other experiments in the wild going on as we speak. They all have the hallmark of arguably conspiratorial, difficult to assess the truth from the trolls, tests the breaking point of credulity, puts belief on the forefront of the discussion, pits opposing factions against each other, and media drones on against one side.

It's not the conspiracy that's the issue, it's your belief that there are only two sides.
 
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