Between lives elapsed time?
- Thread starter Ed8
- Start date
programmer_guy
True ex-Scientologist
Please explain why you believe it is 3 months. (or also provide some URLs.)
What information leads you to proffer that duration?
F.Bullbait
Wise Guy
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation.
programmer_guy
True ex-Scientologist
BTW, 3 months happens to be the end of the 1st trimester of human pregnancy.
How would that be relevant? Does one, upon dropping the body, have to get in a queue for a new body and the earliest insertion point is at 3 months?
D
Deleted member 51
Guest
Thanks for this thread. Made me laugh, 
especially the part about asking everyone to take it seriously!
OMG, one of the most embarrassing things I did when I was in Scientology was write when I was pregnant about when I thought my son picked up the body.
I actually GAVE him those notes some years later and wish and hope so much that he lost or destroyed them since!!
SO red faced embarrassed that he might one day find them again and reread them!!
How stupid and crazy was your mom?!?! He and his friends would be laughing to bits!
Ahhhhhhrrrrrgh!!!
especially the part about asking everyone to take it seriously!OMG, one of the most embarrassing things I did when I was in Scientology was write when I was pregnant about when I thought my son picked up the body.
I actually GAVE him those notes some years later and wish and hope so much that he lost or destroyed them since!! SO red faced embarrassed that he might one day find them again and reread them!!
How stupid and crazy was your mom?!?! He and his friends would be laughing to bits!
Ahhhhhhrrrrrgh!!!
Last edited by a moderator:
guanoloco
As-Wased
...slowpoke...
Reyne Mayer
Pansexual Revolutionary
in order to determine anything like that, you'd have to have actual, detailed and true examples of reincarnation.
the vast majority if not all of 'past life' imaginings are just that, imaginitive results of brain processes similar to dreaming, typically produced in suggestive or hypnotic states, though the subtly directive process of regressive techniques including auditing (even saying 'go back further' implies, even commands, that there is a 'further' to go back).
en.wikipedia.org
Sources of memories
The "memories" recovered by techniques like past-life regression are the result of cryptomnesia: narratives created by the subconscious mind using imagination, forgotten information and suggestions from the therapist.[2][3][4][22][23][24][25] Memories created under hypnosis are indistinguishable from actual memories and can be more vivid than factual memories.[3][26] The greatest predictor of individuals reporting memories of past lives appears to be their beliefs—individuals who believe in reincarnation are more likely to report such memories, while skeptics or disbelievers are less so.[2][6]
Examinations of three cases of apparent past life regression (Bridey Murphy, Jane Evans, and an unnamed English woman) revealed memories that were superficially convincing. However, investigation by experts in the languages used and historical periods described revealed flaws in all three patients' recall. The evidence included speech patterns that were "...used by movie makers and writers to convey the flavour of 16th century English speech" rather than actual Renaissance English, a date that was inaccurate but was the same as a recognized printing error in historical pamphlets, and a subject that reported historically accurate information from the Roman era that was identical to information found in a 1947 novel set in the same time as the individual's memories, with the same name reported by the person regressed. Other details cited are common knowledge and not evidence of the factual nature of the memories; subjects asked to provide historical information that would allow checking provided only vague responses that did not allow for verification, and sometimes were unable to provide critical details that would have been common knowledge (e.g. a subject described the life of a Japanese fighter pilot during World War II but was unable to identify Hirohito as the Emperor of Japan during the 1940s).[5]
Studies
Studies suggest that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method. A 1976 study found that 40% of hypnotizable subjects described new identities and used different names when given a suggestion to regress past their birth.[5] In the 1990s, a series of experiments undertaken by Nicholas Spanos examined the nature of past life memories. Descriptions of alleged past lives were found to be extremely elaborate, with vivid, detailed descriptions. This, however, is not indicative of the validity of this therapeutic method. Subjects who reported memories of past lives exhibited high hypnotizability, and patients demonstrated that the expectations conveyed by the experimenter were most important in determining the characteristics of the reported memories. The degree to which the memories were considered credible by the experimental subjects was correlated most significantly to the subjects' beliefs about reincarnation and their expectation to remember a past life rather than hypnotizability. Spanos' research leads him to the conclusion that past lives are not memories, but actually social constructions based on patients acting "as if" they were someone else, but with significant flaws that would not be expected of actual memories. To create these memories, Spanos' subjects drew upon the expectations established by authority figures and information outside of the experiment such as television, novels, life experiences and their own desires.[5] In sum, it is therefore suggested that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method.
the vast majority if not all of 'past life' imaginings are just that, imaginitive results of brain processes similar to dreaming, typically produced in suggestive or hypnotic states, though the subtly directive process of regressive techniques including auditing (even saying 'go back further' implies, even commands, that there is a 'further' to go back).
Past life regression - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Sources of memories
The "memories" recovered by techniques like past-life regression are the result of cryptomnesia: narratives created by the subconscious mind using imagination, forgotten information and suggestions from the therapist.[2][3][4][22][23][24][25] Memories created under hypnosis are indistinguishable from actual memories and can be more vivid than factual memories.[3][26] The greatest predictor of individuals reporting memories of past lives appears to be their beliefs—individuals who believe in reincarnation are more likely to report such memories, while skeptics or disbelievers are less so.[2][6]
Examinations of three cases of apparent past life regression (Bridey Murphy, Jane Evans, and an unnamed English woman) revealed memories that were superficially convincing. However, investigation by experts in the languages used and historical periods described revealed flaws in all three patients' recall. The evidence included speech patterns that were "...used by movie makers and writers to convey the flavour of 16th century English speech" rather than actual Renaissance English, a date that was inaccurate but was the same as a recognized printing error in historical pamphlets, and a subject that reported historically accurate information from the Roman era that was identical to information found in a 1947 novel set in the same time as the individual's memories, with the same name reported by the person regressed. Other details cited are common knowledge and not evidence of the factual nature of the memories; subjects asked to provide historical information that would allow checking provided only vague responses that did not allow for verification, and sometimes were unable to provide critical details that would have been common knowledge (e.g. a subject described the life of a Japanese fighter pilot during World War II but was unable to identify Hirohito as the Emperor of Japan during the 1940s).[5]
Studies
Studies suggest that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method. A 1976 study found that 40% of hypnotizable subjects described new identities and used different names when given a suggestion to regress past their birth.[5] In the 1990s, a series of experiments undertaken by Nicholas Spanos examined the nature of past life memories. Descriptions of alleged past lives were found to be extremely elaborate, with vivid, detailed descriptions. This, however, is not indicative of the validity of this therapeutic method. Subjects who reported memories of past lives exhibited high hypnotizability, and patients demonstrated that the expectations conveyed by the experimenter were most important in determining the characteristics of the reported memories. The degree to which the memories were considered credible by the experimental subjects was correlated most significantly to the subjects' beliefs about reincarnation and their expectation to remember a past life rather than hypnotizability. Spanos' research leads him to the conclusion that past lives are not memories, but actually social constructions based on patients acting "as if" they were someone else, but with significant flaws that would not be expected of actual memories. To create these memories, Spanos' subjects drew upon the expectations established by authority figures and information outside of the experiment such as television, novels, life experiences and their own desires.[5] In sum, it is therefore suggested that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method.
freethinker
Controversial
TheSneakster
Well-known member
That's not even a theory. It's a hypothesis - and one that cannot be experimentally verified, regardless of the "studies" mentioned in the Wikipedia article you quoted.
In other words, your claim has no more experimental scientific verification than any of Hubbard's claims about past lives.
guanoloco
As-Wased
in order to determine anything like that, you'd have to have actual, detailed and true examples of reincarnation.
the vast majority if not all of 'past life' imaginings are just that, imaginitive results of brain processes similar to dreaming, typically produced in suggestive or hypnotic states, though the subtly directive process of regressive techniques including auditing (even saying 'go back further' implies, even commands, that there is a 'further' to go back).
Past life regression - Wikipedia
Sources of memories
The "memories" recovered by techniques like past-life regression are the result of cryptomnesia: narratives created by the subconscious mind using imagination, forgotten information and suggestions from the therapist.[2][3][4][22][23][24][25] Memories created under hypnosis are indistinguishable from actual memories and can be more vivid than factual memories.[3][26] The greatest predictor of individuals reporting memories of past lives appears to be their beliefs—individuals who believe in reincarnation are more likely to report such memories, while skeptics or disbelievers are less so.[2][6]
Examinations of three cases of apparent past life regression (Bridey Murphy, Jane Evans, and an unnamed English woman) revealed memories that were superficially convincing. However, investigation by experts in the languages used and historical periods described revealed flaws in all three patients' recall. The evidence included speech patterns that were "...used by movie makers and writers to convey the flavour of 16th century English speech" rather than actual Renaissance English, a date that was inaccurate but was the same as a recognized printing error in historical pamphlets, and a subject that reported historically accurate information from the Roman era that was identical to information found in a 1947 novel set in the same time as the individual's memories, with the same name reported by the person regressed. Other details cited are common knowledge and not evidence of the factual nature of the memories; subjects asked to provide historical information that would allow checking provided only vague responses that did not allow for verification, and sometimes were unable to provide critical details that would have been common knowledge (e.g. a subject described the life of a Japanese fighter pilot during World War II but was unable to identify Hirohito as the Emperor of Japan during the 1940s).[5]
Studies
Studies suggest that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method. A 1976 study found that 40% of hypnotizable subjects described new identities and used different names when given a suggestion to regress past their birth.[5] In the 1990s, a series of experiments undertaken by Nicholas Spanos examined the nature of past life memories. Descriptions of alleged past lives were found to be extremely elaborate, with vivid, detailed descriptions. This, however, is not indicative of the validity of this therapeutic method. Subjects who reported memories of past lives exhibited high hypnotizability, and patients demonstrated that the expectations conveyed by the experimenter were most important in determining the characteristics of the reported memories. The degree to which the memories were considered credible by the experimental subjects was correlated most significantly to the subjects' beliefs about reincarnation and their expectation to remember a past life rather than hypnotizability. Spanos' research leads him to the conclusion that past lives are not memories, but actually social constructions based on patients acting "as if" they were someone else, but with significant flaws that would not be expected of actual memories. To create these memories, Spanos' subjects drew upon the expectations established by authority figures and information outside of the experiment such as television, novels, life experiences and their own desires.[5] In sum, it is therefore suggested that past lives are likely false memories, implanted through the susceptibility of the hypnotic method.
If you're going to seriously study this there's actual data out there:
Children Who Report Memories of Past Lives - Division of Perceptual Studies
Tucker writes about James Leininger, a boy who had past-life memories of being a WWII pilot, and Ryan Hammond, who had memories of being a Hollywood agent.
med.virginia.edu
Fifty Years of Research - Division of Perceptual Studies
med.virginia.edu
On top of that, what 99.9999% of Scientologists don't know is that their entire whole track is dub-in of a dub-in or at least not their personal track per Scientology's own material. It's in the basic books that the whole point of the Bridge is to raise the thetan up the Tone Scale from below Death and out of all that dub-in.
That's why the culmination of OTVIII is "I now know who I'm not and ready to find out who I am" or something like that.
D
Deleted member 51
Guest
I agree, it’s not a scientific study because it cannot be verified.
To state that most people who state they remember past lives believe in past lives is a no-brainer. One could also state that those who don’t believe in past lives don’t recall any. If they did, they’d be in Group #1, wouldn’t they?
As far as “hypnotizable” subjects, that’s another wild card. How was it decided they were hypnotized? Were they asked? I’m sure they didn’t crow like a rooster on command. So one could also conclude that those who state they have never been hypnotized also state they don’t believe in past lives. It’s still subjective.
I don’t care if someone believes in past lives or not, but I hate bullshit opinions pretending to be science.
Reyne Mayer
Pansexual Revolutionary
i'm not saying it disproves past lives and/or reincarnation, just that it shows that most if not all claims of 'memories' of such are just essentially false memories of one sort or another -- even kind of an 'implant' the way scientology does it with a background of heavy suggestion that you're supposed to remember 'space opera' past lives.
the burden is on those making extraordinary claims to prove them, and claims of past lives don't pass that standard, so all thing being equal, they have no real value.
one of the most obvious problems with such claims is that so many people imagine that they were popular historical/media characters like Napoleon or Cleopatra. that's a problem that's been noted long before Hubbard came along, and he apparently created the theory of body thetans in part to attempt to explain away inconvenient problems like that.
if anything, the Akashic Record or collective memory theory is a better explanation because it would account for why many people claim to have memories of the same past life individuals -- but not individual reincarnation.
Reyne Mayer
Pansexual Revolutionary
it's not 'actual data' any more than Hubbard's various claims, the OT stories of scientologists, etc.If you're going to seriously study this there's actual data out there:
Children Who Report Memories of Past Lives - Division of Perceptual Studies
Tucker writes about James Leininger, a boy who had past-life memories of being a WWII pilot, and Ryan Hammond, who had memories of being a Hollywood agent.
Fifty Years of Research - Division of Perceptual Studies
On top of that, what 99.9999% of Scientologists don't know is that their entire whole track is dub-in of a dub-in or at least not their personal track per Scientology's own material. It's in the basic books that the whole point of the Bridge is to raise the thetan up the Tone Scale from below Death and out of all that dub-in.
That's why the culmination of OTVIII is "I now know who I'm not and ready to find out who I am" or something like that.
when i've looked into it, all of those sorts of stories end up failing critical tests, and turn out like the infamous Bridey Murphy story to fail critical tests:
'[the principal proponent of the claims] did not mention her birth parents were both partly Irish, and that she had lived with them until the age of three. He also did not mention that an Irish immigrant named Bridie Murphy Corkell (1892–1957) lived across the street from Tighe's childhood home in Chicago, Illinois.[11][12][13] Bridie immigrated to the U.S. in 1908. Although Tighe claimed that she did not know Mrs. Corkell's maiden name, Bridie's spinster sister Margaret Murphy was living with the Corkells in the 1930 census.[11] Researchers noted that many of the elements Virginia Tighe described in Bridey's life corresponded to ones in her own childhood.[14] Cryptomnesia has been a frequently mentioned as an explanation for Tighe's memories.[15][16][17] Because of correlations with Tighe's past life and discrepancies with the Ireland of the Bridey Murphy story's time, writers such as Michael Shermer consider any paranormal interpretation of the case to be "thoroughly disproven".[18] '
Bridey Murphy - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
also, i can pretty much guarantee that from from all those claimed accounts, there are none that actually pass conclusive, concrete tests such as:
* an individual being able to remember concrete information such as bank account numbers, and prove it by being able to reclaim former property
* an individual being fully fluent in a foreign language they would have spoken, or even just able to read fluently in that language, when they have no familiarity with it in their present life
and if the error rate is 99.9999%, that doesn't work out very well, does it? that would be one in every million scientologists, and there haven't even been that many members who got that far in the entire history of the 'subject', so one at most....
guanoloco
As-Wased
Then you haven't looked at this information.it's not 'actual data' any more than Hubbard's various claims, the OT stories of scientologists, etc.
when i've looked into it, all of those sorts of stories end up failing critical tests, and turn out like the infamous Bridey Murphy story to fail critical tests:
'[the principal proponent of the claims] did not mention her birth parents were both partly Irish, and that she had lived with them until the age of three. He also did not mention that an Irish immigrant named Bridie Murphy Corkell (1892–1957) lived across the street from Tighe's childhood home in Chicago, Illinois.[11][12][13] Bridie immigrated to the U.S. in 1908. Although Tighe claimed that she did not know Mrs. Corkell's maiden name, Bridie's spinster sister Margaret Murphy was living with the Corkells in the 1930 census.[11] Researchers noted that many of the elements Virginia Tighe described in Bridey's life corresponded to ones in her own childhood.[14] Cryptomnesia has been a frequently mentioned as an explanation for Tighe's memories.[15][16][17] Because of correlations with Tighe's past life and discrepancies with the Ireland of the Bridey Murphy story's time, writers such as Michael Shermer consider any paranormal interpretation of the case to be "thoroughly disproven".[18] '
Bridey Murphy - Wikipedia
also, i can pretty much guarantee that from from all those claimed accounts, there are none that actually pass conclusive, concrete tests such as:
* an individual being able to remember concrete information such as bank account numbers, and prove it by being able to reclaim former property
* an individual being fully fluent in a foreign language they would have spoken, or even just able to read fluently in that language, when they have no familiarity with it in their present life
and if the error rate is 99.9999%, that doesn't work out very well, does it? that would be one in every million scientologists, and there haven't even been that many members who got that far in the entire history of the 'subject', so one at most....
D
Deleted member 51
Guest
@Reyne Mayer
We’ve had the “Are past lives real?” discussions here and at the old ESMB many times. You are not stating anything new. It’s been discussed to death.
It’s part of some people’s personal belief system. Why does that bother you so much? It seems pretty petty to me to try to force your beliefs on what does or does not occur to strangers after death. Why should you be so worried about what people you don’t know do or don’t do after they’re dead? Since you’re so sure there’s no afterlife, it’s not like you should be concerned about them haunting you or returning as your mother or something.
We’ve had the “Are past lives real?” discussions here and at the old ESMB many times. You are not stating anything new. It’s been discussed to death.
It’s part of some people’s personal belief system. Why does that bother you so much? It seems pretty petty to me to try to force your beliefs on what does or does not occur to strangers after death. Why should you be so worried about what people you don’t know do or don’t do after they’re dead? Since you’re so sure there’s no afterlife, it’s not like you should be concerned about them haunting you or returning as your mother or something.
Operating DB
3 feet behind my butt
I don't believe in any of that crap.