"Ask a Scientologist" - in search of

Back when I was in Scientology I had an interesting conversation with a non Scientologist. I am a musician and together with other musicians we made a concert.

Afterwards one of the other musicians, a good friend, and I were taking a ferry home. We went to the cafeteria and bought a cup of coffee and sat on a table across each other. She asked me about Scientology and somehow the subject became the TRs.

Now there is something that is special about Scientologists and that is that they are taught to always disseminate Scientology when talking on the subject. This makes it difficult to just tell something about the subject, because this idea of disseminating is sitting in the back of the head. It is disturbing.

But in this particular case I decided to completely abandon that idea. Instead I just told her what TRs are with no agenda whatsoever. Then she said why don't we try it out? Well, why not. So we sat there doing TR 0 in a public cafeteria. She was good at it. Quite an unusual situation.

We didn't do the other TRs. It would be too ackward in a public space. There isn't more to the story really. It was fun for both of us. Both her and I are musicians as well as composers of music. The idea of doing something that others would consider a little bit weird is quite normal for both of us.

When you do TR 0 you can go in some kind of light trance but going in some kind of light trance is also kind of a normal thing for both of us. All in all a nice experience and a good way of spending the time on a ferry sitting in a cafeteria.
 
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TheSneakster

Well-known member
When you do TR 0 you can go in some kind of light trance but going in some kind of light trance is also kind of a normal thing for both of us.
I'm writing this as a former Sea Org Technical Division guy at ASHO Foundation (SHSB Course Admin and Tech Training Films I/C before GAoT).

Every single version of the HCO Bulletin (originally dated 12 April 1961) Training Drills, Training Drills Modernized, Training Drills Re-Modernized specifies that the coach of TR-0 Confront is to flunk "anaten" ( attenuated attention AKA trance state) and restart the drill. In a Standard Tech courseroom, one is not going get a supervisor pass on TR-0 until they can do it without entering a trance state at all.
 
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Type4_PTS

Well-known member
I'm writing this as a former Sea Org Technical Division guy at ASHO Foundation (SHSB Course Admin and Tech Training Films I/C before GAoT).

Every single version of the HCO Bulletin (originally dated 12 April 1961) Training Drills, Training Drills Modernized, Training Drills Re-Modernized specifies that the coach of TR-0 Confront is to flunk "anaten" ( attenuated attention aka trance state) and restart the drill. In a Standard Tech courseroom, one is not going get a supervisor pass on TR-0 until they can do it without entering a trance state at all.

While what you wrote may be part of "standard tech", I seriously question whether supervisors are always able to discern that a student is in a
light trance state.

I'm pretty sure it happened to me regularly while doing TRs at several different organizations, including while I did my Pro-TR's Course at Flag back in 1988. I never got flunked for being anaten ever. And as a coach, I never flunked another student for that purpose unless there were obvious physical signs. But I'm pretty sure someone can be in a light trance state with no obvious physical signs.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
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While what you wrote may be part of "standard tech", I seriously question whether supervisors are always able to discern that a student is in a light trance state. I'm pretty sure it happened to me regularly while doing TRs are several different organizations, including while I did my Pro-TR's Course at Flag back in 1988. I never got flunked for being anaten ever. And as a coach, I never flunked another student for that purpose unless there were obvious physical signs. But I'm pretty sure someone can be in a light trance state with no obvious physical signs.
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Regarding the ability of supervisors to discern whether a student was in a light trance or not: In a 100% standard course room, 100% of the supervisors can tell 100% of the time. This is because supervisors have to pass the OBNOSIS DRILL on their course supervisor training checksheet. In addition to that, their ability to detect light trances is scientifically verified when they attest to completing the supervisor training checksheet. They are not simply allowed to state that they have passed the obnosis drill, it is additionally confirmed by precise manifestations on the e-meter (i.e. a floating needle).

Regarding whether there are "physical signs" if someone is in a light trance: The mere fact that the individual is physically inside a Scientology org class room—for which they paid physical universe money—can be considered scientific proof that they are in a light trance.

:hattip:


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Veda

Well-known member
The word trance has more than one definition. One is negative, one is positive.

Trance: "Detachment from one's physical surroundings, as in contemplation or daydreaming," definition two, from the Internet.



Link to table of contents. See the chapter on Trance from Little Essays Towards Truth.

In his book Magick in Theory and Practice, Aleister Crowley wrote: "The whole and sole object of all true Magickal training is to become free of every kind of limitation."

During late 1952, Hubbard gave a series of lectures where he referred to Aleister Crowley: "Our whole activity tends to make an individual completely independent of any limitation... Old Aleister Crowley had some interesting things to say about this..."

In 1954, Volney Mathison, who gave Hubbard the e-meter, with which he worked mischief. Volney had this to say about Hubbard:



"...what we really observed was what we observed... that we always observed to observe..." L. Ron Hubbard assured his followers.

Listen to the video below:



Notice that she asks permission.

Hubbard used both the negative and positive type of trance.

Did he ask permission?​
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
......

I'm writing this as a former Sea Org Technical Division guy at ASHO Foundation (SHSB Course Admin and Tech Training Films I/C before GAoT). Every single version of the HCO Bulletin (originally dated 12 April 1961) Training Drills, Training Drills Modernized, Training Drills Re-Modernized specifies that the coach of TR-0 Confront is to flunk "anaten" ( attenuated attention AKA trance state) and restart the drill. In a Standard Tech courseroom, one is not going get a supervisor pass on TR-0 until they can do it without entering a trance state at all.

I see you have impressively established your Tech bona fides!

Unfortunately, your post in the org was not a Tech post. It was an admin post (i.e. "Course Admin").

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should lose the tech "authority angle" because it's silly. You have said on many occasions that the only tech training you ever had was the HQS. Typically all newbie Scientologists enroll on that course in their first days of being a Scientologist, so maybe your theories would be more convincing if you focused on facts instead of trying to impress with Scientological status.

.
 
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lotus

Pfizer DNA biotech frog
While what you wrote may be part of "standard tech", I seriously question whether supervisors are always able to discern that a student is in a
light trance state.

I'm pretty sure it happened to me regularly while doing TRs are several different organizations, including while I did my Pro-TR's Course at Flag back in 1988. I never got flunked for being anaten ever. And as a coach, I never flunked another student for that purpose unless there were obvious physical signs. But I'm pretty sure someone can be in a light trance state with no obvious physical signs.
Also happened to me.
However, as a Zen meditation practitioner I’d often did happened to me.
But lately, I did practice much yoga Nidra which is said to be the Yogi sleep. It is a trance of a deep relaxation state which is close to the deep sleep state.

all these flunks to people learning to being so relaxed they entered a trance state (which provides great rest to the body and the mind ) are just sad….
 

Irayam

Well-known member
We didn't do the other TRs. It would be too ackward in a public space.
Indeed, that would be very strange to do in public.
But that doesn't stop two young Scientology rookies from doing TR0 bullbaiting on the train home from course...
At least that's what we were doing with enthusiasm and a lot of laughter on the half hour ride home. I still wonder what people must have thought!
This TR (on the course or on the train) is one of the very few good memories I have of my early days in Scientology.
 
I'm writing this as a former Sea Org Technical Division guy at ASHO Foundation (SHSB Course Admin and Tech Training Films I/C before GAoT).

Every single version of the HCO Bulletin (originally dated 12 April 1961) Training Drills, Training Drills Modernized, Training Drills Re-Modernized specifies that the coach of TR-0 Confront is to flunk "anaten" ( attenuated attention AKA trance state) and restart the drill. In a Standard Tech courseroom, one is not going get a supervisor pass on TR-0 until they can do it without entering a trance state at all.
If you are 100% focused on something it is a kind of a trance state. You are not anaten, you are very much aware. But everything else than the subject you are concerned about is kind of closed off. It is similar to children playing and being totally concerned about the game.

Edit: Some more thoughts. I am a former Sea Org member and I have come to the conclusion that the whole Sea Org experience, being in the Sea Org, was some kind of trance state.
 
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TheSneakster

Well-known member
If you are 100% focused on something it is a kind of a trance state. You are not anaten, you are very much aware.
Well, if we get to make up our own definitions for psychological terminology, no real discussion can occur. So, I will go with the American Psychological Association official online dictionary says for trance:

APA said:
trance
n.
1. an altered state of consciousness characterized by decreased awareness of and responsiveness to stimuli and an apparent loss of voluntary power.

2. a state brought about by hypnotic induction or autosuggestion and characterized by susceptibility to suggestion. Hypnotized persons may report a light trance, in which they might accept suggestions that, for example, they cannot open their eyes or they lack sensation in a limb, or a medium trance, in which they may experience posthypnotic amnesia and posthypnotic suggestion. A deep trance might be characterized by an inability to open the eyes without affecting the trance, complete somnambulism, positive and negative posthypnotic hallucinations, and hyperesthesia (excessive sensitivity). The reality of such trance states has been the subject of much debate. Also called hypnotic trance.
So, trance as defined by APA definitely involves anaten (as defined in Scientology) and is absolutely an unwanted condition in a Scientology auditor during a session. Therefore it merits a flunk during the TR-0 drill.

The notion that someone can be in a such a trance state without any visible indication - as put forth by certain critics over the years - contradicts this official APA definition. Neither is that notion supported by any peer-reviewed psychological studies that I have ever seen.
 
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haiqu

Well-known member
As a comms course super I noticed that people would inititally look lightly tranced but that it would blow off as they did TR0 longer. It's part of the process, people eventually come into present time which is beneficial. I just let them do the drill.

It would only deserve a flunk if it was being done on purpose as a way of avoiding confronting.
 

Type4_PTS

Well-known member
Here's an excerpt of a
Well, if we get to make up our own definitions for psychological terminology, no real discussion can occur. So, I will go with the American Psychological Association official online dictionary says for trance:



So, trance as defined by APA definitely involves anaten (as defined in Scientology) and is absolutely an unwanted condition in a Scientology auditor during a session. Therefore it merits a flunk during the TR-0 drill.

The notion that someone can be in a such a trance state without any visible indication - as put forth by certain critics over the years - contradicts this official APA definition. Neither is that notion supported by any peer-reviewed psychological studies that I have ever seen.
There is not widespread agreement within the field of Psychology on definitions related to hypnotism and the APA frequently has changed the definition they provide. You would get a better definition if you consulted a hypnotist on the subject of hypnotism and trance states.

Within the field of psychology, there are many experts who have expressed strong disagreement with the APA definitions of trance and hypnosis which have changed on a regular basis. Here's one example:

Grounding Hypnosis in Science: The “New” APA Division 30 Definition of Hypnosis as a Step Backward

Excerpt:

Excerpt1.png

<snip>



The only reduction of awareness when someone is in a light trance state is the reduction of peripheral awareness. Your awareness is highly focused in a narrow way just as is done in TR 0.

As is stated on the Cleveland Clinic website:


What is hypnotherapy?

Hypnotherapy is a technique that uses the hypnotic state, which enables changes in perception and memory, a major increase in response to suggestion, and the potential for managing many physiologic functions that are usually involuntary. Hypnotherapy uses guided relaxation, intense concentration and focused attention to achieve a heightened state of awareness that is sometimes called a trance. The person’s attention is so focused while in this state that anything going on around the person is temporarily blocked or ignored. In this naturally occurring state and with the help of a trained therapist, the person may focus his or her attention on specific thoughts or tasks.
 

Veda

Well-known member
Well, if we get to make up our own definitions for psychological terminology, no real discussion can occur.
We're not willy-nilly making up our own definitions.

That you are using the fallacy of authority is pathetic.

It's comical that you're using the American Psychological Association - which regarded Hubbard as an insane con man - to weasel out of an actual serious discussion amongst adults. This is reminiscent of Hubbard using a reference to the United Nations, and its Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to legitimize his attempt to "build into society... an actual stimulus response mechanism."

From Ron's Journal '68:
____________________________Begin quote_____________________________​


...And the general line of attack is along the line of human rights.

Now I'll give you a clue how this is handled, somebody comes up to you, he's a hostile person, he says "na na na Scientology," and you say "Why are you against human rights?!" and, then, if you know anything about human rights like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nations, that sort of thing, you know something about the subject, you just follow it straight up, total attack, in other words you don't defend Scientology, you just simply attack along this line of human rights...

...Now actually what will happen, what will happen, really, is each time Scientology is attacked, we will build into society, if all of you do this, we'll build into society an actual stimulus-response mechanism, whereas an attack on Scientology is actually an attack on human rights...



_________________________End quote___________________________

So, I will go with the American Psychological Association official online dictionary says for trance:
"Characterized by suggestibility to suggestion..."

Scientologists are typically highly suggestible to Scientology.



*

From Hubbard's late 1946/early 1947 Admissions/Affirmations:

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people.
It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler."




So, trance as defined by APA definitely involves anaten (as defined in Scientology) and is absolutely an unwanted condition in a Scientology auditor during a session. Therefore it merits a flunk during the TR-0 drill.
It's amusing how you go back and forth between a group - regarded by Hubbard, as secretly controlled by extraterrestrial "psychs" - and Hubbard's instructions to Scientologists. How dumb do you think we are? Oh that's right, you think we're "wogs," "DBs," and "SPs."

The notion that someone can be in a such a trance state without any visible indication - as put forth by certain critics over the years - contradicts this official APA definition. Neither is that notion supported by any peer-reviewed psychological studies that I have ever seen.
But it is, often, noticeable, as is the amoral expedience of some Scientologists when they're trying to trick "homo saps" (Hubbard's term for human beings who are not Scientologists).

As a comms course super I noticed that people would inititally look lightly tranced but that it would blow off as they did TR0 longer. It's part of the process, people eventually come into present time which is beneficial. I just let them do the drill.

It would only deserve a flunk if it was being done on purpose as a way of avoiding confronting.
The old idea is that Scientology procedures, and handling, "blow off" unconsciousness and reactivity, which sounds good, until one realizes that Scientology installs its own "stimulus response mechanisms," and programming, into the "vacuum" left by "clearing."

Cinematic depiction of the exploitative use of catharsis (the process of abreaction) by a cult leader:

Watch as a poor soul's unconsciousness and pain are dispelled ("blown off")
and he is recruited into a cult.



 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
As a comms course super I noticed that people would inititally look lightly tranced but that it would blow off as they did TR0 longer. It's part of the process, people eventually come into present time which is beneficial. I just let them do the drill.

It would only deserve a flunk if it was being done on purpose as a way of avoiding confronting.
Hey man, I'm just repeating what the HCOB coaching instructions state. In the original 1961 HCOB Train Drills for TR-0 it says:

Ron Hubbard said:
TRAINING STRESS: ( ... ) Coach may speak only if student goes anaten (dope off). Student is confronting the body, thetan and bank of preclear.

The 1961RA version (Training Drills Remodernized ) (revised Sept 1980) changed the above and added a patter paragraph:


Ron Hubbard said:
PATTER: When TR 0 is coached, coach uses „Start“ to begin the coaching period. He uses „Flunk“ when the student shows any manifestation of non-confront, indicates what the non-confront is, and uses „Start“ to begin the drill again. „That’s it“ is used to terminate the drill.
So there was no flunking at all, originally. How about that ?
 

Veda

Well-known member
The original instruction for TR-0 was in HCOB 11 June 1957, written by L. Ron Hubbard Junior (who was, subsequently, erased):

"Training stress: Have the student and coach sit facing each other, neither making any conversation or effort to be interesting. Have them sit and look at each other and say and do nothing for some hours. Student must not speak, fidget, or be embarrassed or anaten. Coach may speak only if student goes anaten (dope off). Student is confronting the body, thetan and bank of the preclear."

When I first did TR0 in June 1970, there was no "start," and we went for two hours until a wind-up alarm clock rang.

Lots of material was written by others, during the 1950s, which was latter attributed to Hubbard.

Richard DeMille wrote and/or coauthored Essay on Management and Essay of Authoritarianism but his name was later removed.
 
The word trance has more than one definition. One is negative, one is positive.

Trance: "Detachment from one's physical surroundings, as in contemplation or daydreaming," definition two, from the Internet.



Link to table of contents. See the chapter on Trance from Little Essays Towards Truth.

In his book Magick in Theory and Practice, Aleister Crowley wrote: "The whole and sole object of all true Magickal training is to become free of every kind of limitation."

During late 1952, Hubbard gave a series of lectures where he referred to Aleister Crowley: "Our whole activity tends to make an individual completely independent of any limitation... Old Aleister Crowley had some interesting things to say about this..."

In 1954, Volney Mathison, who gave Hubbard the e-meter, with which he worked mischief. Volney had this to say about Hubbard:



"...what we really observed was what we observed... that we always observed to observe..." L. Ron Hubbard assured his followers.

Listen to the video below:



Notice that she asks permission.

Hubbard used both the negative and positive type of trance.

Did he ask permission?​
That video

"Permission to Trance: A Beginners Introduction to Hypnosis"

is really great.
 
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