Are any thorough & balanced?

[Veda]

Does our hard wiring prevent us from creating such books and essays?

 

[Veda]

This below post led to the post, on another thread, above.​

Thanks. I read the first three L. Kin books in the 1990s. At first, it seemed like, perhaps, a non-cultic, non-sci fi, non Hubbard's "case," version of Scientology. When I saw the third book (Pied Pipers), I realized it wasn't that.

From the L. Kin Bio:

"Auditing on this level [Excalibur] resulted in face to face contacts with spaceship crew and implant operators on other planets. (For further details see 'The Pied Pipers'.)"

There seems to be what appears to be an overlap between The L. Kin books and the Pilot.

The sequence seems to be: From L. Ron Hubbard's significances, processes, and e-meter to Bill Robertson's significances, processes, and e-meter to L. Kin's significances, processes, and e-meter to the Pilot's significances, processes, and e-meter.

Roughly, about ten years ago, L. Kin seems to have switched to something he calls "mind walking."

​

Whether this is a trick lead-in to the Galactic Patrol et al., or a sincere change, is hard to tell. Perhaps someone can find his explanation of why he switched to "mind walking," and what he thinks of Hubbard and Bill Robertson, now, and start a thread on that.

-snip

Some years later, it appears that Scientology and Ron's Orgs was largely dropped by this person, and replace with "Mind Walking":

​

This person wrote four books, the latter volumes potentially lead a person into a state of what might be called simulated mental illness.

It's great that he changed his mind, but why does his feel no need to explain Scientology and Bill Robertson ? and tell of his transition to a saner approach - or perhaps he does explain.

If he does not, is he, like many others, "hard wired" to not be able to do so.

This is for someone else to research and decipher. I'm only putting some ideas out there.

If he does have an detailed explanation for his changes, it might be helpful to others.

​

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Ulrich used to write for IVy, but I think this was before he created Mind Walking. If you want to know what he now thinks about Scientology and Bill Robertson, maybe the best thing is to ask him via his website.

[email protected]

He's also made an interview video, where he talks about the origins of MindWalking;

 

[Veda]

Ulrich used to write for IVy, but I think this was before he created Mind Walking. If you want to know what he now thinks about Scientology and Bill Robertson, maybe the best thing is to ask him via his website.

[email protected]

He's also made an interview video, where he talks about the origins of MindWalking;

Those who took - take - his L. Kin books seriously might benefit from an explanation.

That he chooses not to provide that explanation is not a good sign.

Looks like he was involved with Scientology for the better part of twenty years and, then, erased it from his bio.

Those that believe his 1994 and 1996 books, which treat Hubbard's "Incident 2" and Bill Robertson's wackadoodle cosmology as facts, might be interested.

But, as far as know, he does not care to provide a possible explanation to those who have fallen under the spell of his space opera phase.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

That's a fair point, but a possible explanation for it could be that he finds some of the technology useful but for understandable reasons doesn't like the bad PR associated with the subject. The founders of Metapsychology came to the same conclusion; that it just wasn't worth the hassle of mentioning the fact that they'd been in Scientology.

I'm not a fan of the space opera stuff myself, which is one reason why I didn't go further in Scn than I did. My friend who trained with Ulrich in Germany didn't have the same problem and came home happy with what he'd gotten from the experience, but maybe Ulrich's moved on from all that stuff now.

If anyone speaks German, here's Anna's take on the subject (i assume she's his wife though that isn't mentioned on the site);

 

[Veda]

That's a fair point, but one I think could be explained quite simply by the fact that he finds some of the technology useful but for understandable reasons doesn't like the bad PR associated with the subject.

PR?

Are there people still following these L. Kin books? There appear to be.

Was Ken Ogger a casualty of the Pied Pipers of Heaven book and From the Bottom to the Top book?

The founders of Metapsychology came to the same conclusion; that it just wasn't worth the hassle of mentioning the fact that they'd been in Scientology.

The founders of Matapsychology were in a prolonged, and very expensive, and stressful and emotionally exhausting, legal battle with Scientology Inc., when one (Sarge Gerbode) made a deal with Scientology and sold his note (David Mayo's IOU to him for funding that battle) to Scientology Inc.

Ulrich Kramer was under no comparable pressure or stress, or complexity.

I'm not a fan of the space opera stuff myself,

I have no problem with someone recalling experiences, even if these experiences extend back vast amounts of time - or are even someone else's experiences that impinge on the person for some reason - and could be called space opera. That's not the point. As early as 1955 - likely much earlier - Hubbard knew that his "dynamic principle of existence: Survive!" (also known as the Will to Live), could be used in a manipulative manner.

Hubbard would also have known that by being the authoritative single source who informs people of the inaccessible past, a past they must know (from Hubbard), along with its accompanying procedures which they must do, in order to survive, and avoid an agonized future, etc., etc., he was giving himself hypnotic power over vulnerable people.

Add to that the e-meter, which is used as a truth detector, and it's a pretty effective mind-f__k operation.

which is one reason why I didn't go further in Scn than I did. My friend who trained with Ulrich in Germany didn't have the same problem and came home happy with what he'd gotten from the experience, but maybe Ulrich's moved on from all that stuff now.

The problem is not space opera, the problem is mind-f__k.

And, yes, there are some people who liked being mind-f__ked.

Then there are the casualties.

If anyone speaks German, here's Anna's take on the subject (i assume she's his wife though that isn't mentioned on the site);

It may be that I've missed something. Perhaps Kramer wrote a book, or made a statement somewhere - in English - that reasonably could have been seen by those who were led into the adjoining craniums of Commodore Hubbard and Captain Bill by his writings.

At this time, that doesn't appear to be the case, however.

Interesting how Scientology, the study of "knowing how to know," etc., often restricts, prohibits, or simply disinclines others from providing information. It does this by lawsuits, gag agreements, threats, persuasion, or by the person with information choosing to remain silent, to protect his or her own reputation, or for "PR" purposes.

Here's a fellow who, while lost in the mirror maze of Scientology, wrote four books essentially endorsing Scientology, including endorsing the sputter that Hubbard vomited after his two nervous breakdowns, plus the oobleck added by Bill Robertson - founder of the Free Zone - and, then, after seemingly freeing himself from that, while still acting in the role of a counselor and therapist, goes silent - or appears to have gone silent - on the topics of Hubbard, Scientology, Bill Robertson and Ron's Orgs (the original Free Zone).

Bill Robertson died in 1991. That same year, the first L. Kin book on Scientology appeared.



?​

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Just quickly on Ken Ogger (the Pilot) and whether or not he'd run the L.Kin materials on himself, because I think I can give a definitive answer to that one; the answer is "no".

I've just made a search of Pilot's posts on ARS (I saved a copy of the whole set to a USB pen drive some years back), and he makes very little reference to L.Kin in them which he surely would have done if he'd worked with them himself. He mentions L.Kin's GE rundown in one of his posts, but only in connection with a question Heidrun Beer had asked about it and he then left the question open for others to comment on; so I'd say the chances are slim that he used any of the L.Kin materials on himself, especially since he was heavily involved in his own whole track research (written up in the Super Scio materials) at the same time those books were produced.

He was aware of Bill Robertson's orgs and bridge but didn't see it as a path he wanted to pursue himself.

 

[Veda]

Just quickly on Ken Ogger (the Pilot) and whether or not he'd run the L.Kin materials on himself, because I think I can give a definitive answer to that one; the answer is "no".

I didn't state he ran the materials, but it's pretty obvious that he borrowed some of the ideas.

Mostly, the last two L. Kin books were an endorsement of Hubbard's paranoid cosmology, full of implanters and invisible crawling things, and e-meters to affirm that it's all real.

I've just made a search of Pilot's posts on ARS (I saved a copy of the whole set to a USB pen drive some years back), and he makes very little reference to L.Kin in them which he surely would have done if he'd worked with them himself. He mentions L.Kin's GE rundown in one of his posts, but only in connection with a question Heidrun Beer had asked about it and he then left the question open for others to comment on; so I'd say the chances are slim that he used any of the L.Kin materials on himself, especially since he was heavily involved in his own whole track research (written up in the Super Scio materials) at the same time those books were produced.

Ogger was using his e-meter to do whole track research, believed Hubbard had been Pain-Drug-Hypnotized, and that he had been Sex-Drug-Hypnotized.

He was aware of Bill Robertson's orgs and bridge but didn't see it as a path he wanted to pursue himself.

He was creating his own collection of whole track implants, and was as much a casualty of Scientology as Bill Robertson.

Meanwhile, I see that the term "mind-walking" had been trademarked in Europe by Ulrich Kramer, even though the references to "mind-walking," on the internet, that resemble what Kramer is describing, are to Star Wars (the movie series) related material.

Mind walking

Jedi-ism seems to be becoming more popular than Scientology.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I don't see any evidence that Pilot borrowed L.Kin 's ideas. I agree that there are similarities, but bearing in mind that he had done and completed Solo NOTS and had a long history in the subject going back to the mid-60s, he may just as well have come up with them independently.

The subject under discussion is what Ulrich’s current views are regarding LRH, Bill Robertson and Scientology, which neither of us know. There's only you and I in this conversation, with no one else looking like they're going to join it; and we’re both whistling in the dark here, it seems to me. So there’s only one further direction it can go in; is one of us is going to contact Ulrich and ask him, and about the possible Jedi influence too?

 

[Zertel]

This below post led to the post, on another thread, above.​

Some years later, it appears that Scientology and Ron's Orgs was largely dropped by this person, and replace with "Mind Walking":

​

This person wrote four books, the latter volumes potentially lead a person into a state of what might be called simulated mental illness.

It's great that he changed his mind, but why does his feel no need to explain Scientology and Bill Robertson ? and tell of his transition to a saner approach - or perhaps he does explain.

If he does not, is he, like many others, "hard wired" to not be able to do so.

This is for someone else to research and decipher. I'm only putting some ideas out there.

If he does have an detailed explanation for his changes, it might be helpful to others.

​

I watched the video at 1.75 playback speed and it was totally intelligible. The caption feature was surprisingly accurate which is a nice modern tech feature which allows deaf people to participate in the conversation.

Any ex scn would see the similarities to scn with rewording of scn specific terminology. A major exception is that toward the end of the video he says that you do 20 hours of "duo" which is getting audited on the cans which he calls training and then go onto solo on the cans. Credence is given to past lives and extraterrestrial beings as well as incorporeal (non embodied) beings. There was no mention of the scn intergalactic conflict story so I guess that got dropped.

In answer to the bolded above, why bother to explain any background or references to scn since the concepts are widely shared by numerous groups, practices and religions. People doing Mindwalking would look at it as its own thing and get what they get out of it. Whether they get into a cult mind or go spinny by acknowledging the existence of entities and extraterrestrials who knows. That would be a potential liability for any practice addressing such things.

 

[Veda]

I watched the video at 1.75 playback speed and it was totally intelligible. The caption feature was surprisingly accurate which is a nice modern tech feature which allows deaf people to participate in the conversation.

Any ex scn would see the similarities to scn with rewording of scn specific terminology. A major exception is that toward the end of the video he says that you do 20 hours of "duo" which is getting audited on the cans which he calls training and then go onto solo on the cans. Credence is given to past lives and extraterrestrial beings as well as incorporeal (non embodied) beings. There was no mention of the scn intergalactic conflict story so I guess that got dropped.

In answer to the bolded above, why bother to explain any background in scn since the concepts are widely shared by numerous groups, practices and religions. People doing Mindwalking would look at it as its own thing and get what they get out of it. Whether they get into a cult mind or go spinny by acknowledging entities who knows. That would be a potential liability for any practice addressing such things.

He doesn't have to explain it on this video, but to not explain it at all, anywhere, so that these hooked, or encouraged, by his many years of promoting Scientology, and then five years of promoting and selling Captain Bill-ism, would have the opportunity to see it, is an abdication of responsibility.

But, maybe, privately, he still believes it, and has simply glommed onto the Star Wars sub culture, and its psychological/consciousness exploration component.

More Mind Walking from the adjacent sub culture of comics and cartoons.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Ulrich used to write for IVy, but I think this was before he created Mind Walking. If you want to know what he now thinks about Scientology and Bill Robertson, maybe the best thing is to ask him via his website.

[email protected]

He's also made an interview video, where he talks about the origins of MindWalking;

He is using scio lingo throughout this interview. He's still using the e-meter. Pretty clear that his method is a freelance version of auditing. Ask, "what's bothering you?" -- take it up and audit it.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Just briefly on Bill Robertson, whom Veda describes as having been a casualty of Scientology. I admit that my acquaintance with him is scant compared with other people's here, but from what I've seen and know of him my impression is as follows;

He'd found a niche for himself which enabled him to indulge his evident delusions of grandeur, which was what he clearly wanted to do; he was evidently happier being "The Grand Parmigiani" or whatever it was, and Ron Hubbard's special emissary in this sector of the galaxy, than an engineering student from Nowheresville, Indiana or wherever he came from. Furthermore, he made a good living ministering to people who shared his view of the world.

I would suggest that within the limitations of his belief system, he was probably happier than the majority of people out there in the world (I refuse to use the Scientology term). It's easy to say that he would have been better off giving all that up and becoming a simple mystic like for example Bede Griffiths or Thomas Merton, but that would have been unlikely to have appealed to him.

 

[Veda]

Just briefly on Bill Robertson, whom Veda describes as being a victim of Scientology. I question whether that was the case.

He'd found a niche for himself which enabled him to indulge his evident delusions of grandeur, which was he clearly wanted to do; he was evidently happier being "The Grand Parmigiani" or whatever it was, and Ron Hubbard's special emissary in this sector of the galaxy, than an engineering student from Nowheresville, Indiana or wherever he came from. Furthermore, he made a good living ministering to people who shared his view of the world.

I would suggest that within the limitations of his belief system, he was probably happier than the majority of people out there in the world (I refuse to use the Scientology term). It's easy to say that he would have been better off giving all that up and becoming a simple mystic like for example Bede Griffiths or Thomas Merton, but that would have been unlikely to have appealed to him.

I met Bill Robertson in the early 1970s. He was a physically large, loud, generally friendly, but bossy, person, and a Scientology fanatic.

Bill Robertson had been "validated" by "Source" by being told, by Hubbard, that he "was the only being of comparable magnitude that I have known in this lifetime."

The "world's first real Clear" John McMaster - years later - would describe Hubbard's practice of giving an over-the-top "validation" (from the hero-genius of the universe) as having been been done to others, after which they would never abandon their loyalty to Hubbard. McMaster also described it as having been done to him. He had been told that he was "the only one," etc. And despite later realizing that he had been subjected to a manipulative technique by Hubbard, he could never fully free himself from its effects. He was, psychologically, torn in half by the experience, since he would not deny that Hubbard was a fraud, yet remained in Hubbard's grip in some odd, inescapable, fashion. He eventually died an alcoholic in a dingy rooming house.

During the early and mid 1980s, when I was auditing at a break-away mission, I became acquainted with an early member of Bill Robertson's Free Zone, now better known as Ron's Org. This person had been a student under Robertson, and would eventually return to Germany to do the Super NOTs auditor, Case Supervisor, and Course Supervisor course, supervised by Bill Robertson. Super NOTs was eventually renamed Excalibur. She knew of Robertson's special "validation" from Hubbard and, to her, it was confirmation that he was the chosen one, and, by extension, that she had been chosen (and "validated" by RON) herself.

After this person returned from training on Super NOTs under Bill Robertson, I had a conversation with her. She cautioned me that no one would "make it to OT" who was not right with RON , and that RON was literally on the other side of the Bridge, and a kind of ultimate "Qual," to accept or reject anyone who sought to cross the Bridge.

Fast forward several years, and Bill Robertson was quite ill, and attempting to treat his illness with Scientology, forsaking conventional medical treatment. Although this period is shrouded in secrecy, it is known that Robertson died - apparently of throat cancer - at age 53 or 54.

 

[Zertel]

He is using scio lingo throughout this interview. He's still using the e-meter. Pretty clear that his method is a freelance version of auditing. Ask, "what's bothering you?" -- take it up and audit it.

It would be interesting to see what the specific methodology of Mind Walking is but the website is mostly in German with limited English translation and doesn't seem to go into specifics. All I can gather from the videos here is that it's mostly solo auditing and if you get bogged or experience "incursion from entities" you can contact another participant to help you out. Scientologists, Ex Scientologists, Jedis and some others would understand the concept but the average wog would think it's nonsense. (I occasionally use scn terms just for fun, no offense meant)

Unlike Scientology a person entering Mind Walking would be aware that they are investigating the paranormal and supernatural from the start.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I met Bill Robertson in the early 1970s. He was a physically large, loud, generally friendly, but bossy, person, and a Scientology fanatic.

Bill Robertson had been "validated" by "Source" by being told, by Hubbard, that he "was the only being of comparable magnitude that I have known in this lifetime."

The "world's first real Clear" John McMaster - years later - would describe Hubbard's practice of giving an over-the-top "validation" (from the hero-genius of the universe) as having been been done to others, after which they would never abandon their loyalty to Hubbard. McMaster also described it as having been done to him. He had been told that he was "the only one," etc. And despite later realizing that he had been subjected to a manipulative technique by Hubbard, he could never fully free himself from its effects. He was, psychologically, torn in half by the experience, since he would not deny that Hubbard was a fraud, yet remained in Hubbard's grip in some odd, inescapable, fashion. He eventually died an alcoholic in a dingy rooming house.

During the early and mid 1980s, when I was auditing at a break-away mission, I became acquainted with an early member of Bill Robertson's Free Zone, now better known as Ron's Org. This person had been a student under Robertson, and would eventually return to Germany to do the Super NOTs auditor, Case Supervisor, and Course Supervisor course, supervised by Bill Robertson. Super NOTs was eventually renamed Excalibur. She knew of Robertson's special "validation" from Hubbard and, to her, it was confirmation that he was the chosen one, and, by extension, that she had been chosen (and "validated" by RON) herself.

After this person returned from training on Super NOTs under Bill Robertson, I had a conversation with her. She cautioned me that no one would "make it to OT" who was not right with RON , and that RON was literally on the other side of the Bridge, and a kind of ultimate "Qual," to accept or reject anyone who sought to cross the Bridge.

Fast forward several years, and Bill Robertson was quite ill, and attempting to treat his illness with Scientology, forsaking conventional medical treatment. Although this period is shrouded in secrecy, it is known that Robertson died - apparently of throat cancer - at age 53 or 54.

OK, fair enough Veda; you met him and I didn't. I'd still say though that you only buy into that "only being of comparable magnitude that I have known in this lifetime" stuff if you want to (unless you maintain that Hubbard had some kind of weird, occult influence on others based on his background in black magick and that was very difficult to shake off).The throat cancer was quite likely due to smoking because the great majority of old-time Scientologists smoked, and believed themselves immune to its carcinogenic effects because they weren't PTS.

I'm more easily persuaded that John McMaster was a victim of Scientology, because he was clearly treated abominably by Hubbard and the organisation and essentially discarded as soon as they had no further use for him.

 

[Zertel]

He doesn't have to explain it on this video, but to not explain it at all, anywhere, so that these hooked, or encouraged, by his many years of promoting Scientology, and then five years of promoting and selling Captain Bill-ism, would have the opportunity to see it, is an abdication of responsibility.

But, maybe, privately, he still believes it, and has simply glommed onto the Star Wars sub culture, and its psychological/consciousness exploration component.

More Mind Walking from the adjacent sub culture of comics and cartoons.

Many people change their opinions and beliefs over time. Whether they need to be apologetic about promoting their previous beliefs would be a matter of opinion, I think. It would apply to all "apostates" across the board. No doubt some exes regret recruiting people into scn but for the most part people get into a cult by their own decision.

 

[Veda]

OK, fair enough Veda; you met him and I didn't. I'd still say though that you only buy into that "only being of comparable magnitude that I have known in this lifetime" stuff if you want to (unless you maintain that Hubbard had some kind of weird, occult influence on others based on his background in black magick and that was very difficult to shake off).

It was psychology, not magic. Hubbard knew how to manipulate.

The throat cancer was quite likely due to smoking because the great majority of old-time Scientologists smoked, and believed themselves immune to its carcinogenic effects because they weren't PTS.

I'm more easily persuaded that John McMaster was a victim of Scientology, because he was clearly treated abominably by Hubbard and the organization and essentially discarded as soon as they had no further use for him.

Many people change their opinions and beliefs over time. Whether they need to be apologetic about promoting their previous beliefs would be a matter of opinion, I think. It would apply to all "apostates" across the board. No doubt some exes regret recruiting people into scn but for the most part people get into a cult by their own decision.

The people I brought into Scientology, I later brought out of Scientology.

 

[programmer_guy]

<snip> but for the most part people get into a cult by their own decision.

I agree that is true for 1st gen but not true for 2nd gen.

 

[Veda]

Leah Remini: "I brought people into Scientology... [and] have a responsibility to do the work when we find out [it was] damaging..."