Another Scientology OT jumps from a tall building and proves gravity exists

[Veda]

In the article was a video that tried to define cult. I think it should be defined so that people know exactly what is meant by it.

....

Scientology Inc. is a Destructive Cult. It has also been characterized as a psycho-political cult by various governments. But that's really off topic for this thread,

Hubbard started making vast "OT" claims for his "tech" in 1952. He never stopped, clarified, corrected or modified his claims. You are being disingenuous and/or are extremely ignorant of Hubbard's claims.

It's bizarre to see someone going through the motions of insisting that Hubbard did not commit repeated and outrageous fraud by selling a Bridge to Operating Thetan.

This is something that certain people in Scientology are expected to do, and convincingly, when encountering someone who's done "the Bridge," and expecting to be OT (in some fashion), is not OT.

It's a "handling."

It takes many forms, all of them incredibly weaselly.

Wonder if Frank Suarez was subjected to one of these "handlings."

That might have sent him into his depression.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Since OT VII was replaced with Solo NOTS in the 1980's, it is a pure guess whether original OT VII was renumbered and supposed to be among the last seven OT course sections.

And the beat goes on . . .

Ken Urquhart, LRH's butler, confidant and Class 9, chatted informally during a 2009
speaking engagement in Moscow with the indie field. From an audio recording:

"I once asked LRH on the ship, how many OT levels he had researched.​

And he said, I think it was 86. That was in, ahhh, early seventies."​

To the best of my recollection, Ken was field auditing in 2009
and probably promoting his services among the Russki indies.

 

[Karakorum]

No one writer or journalist can please everyone.
Tony's style is very appreciated by the Bunkerites and Bunkeroos.
Tony comes from a different life experience and paradigm than most of us.

I admire that he exposes the cult relentlessly every 24 hours no matter what the cost.

I admire his work as well. He has been one of the most important people in the field, probably THE news reporter when it comes to all things scn and ex-scn. Decades of good journalism.

Which doesn't mean I'm gonna be silent if I see some piece I do not particularly like.

One of the lessons I brought out of the cult is to avoid black-and-white thinking at ALL COST. I've spent far too much time inside looking away and not saying anything when I saw bad or just suboptimal things being done just because that person "was on our team, we shouldn't talk bad".

Tony is on our team, I strongly appreciate what he does. Which will in no way impede me from pointing out things I may not necessarily like when he does them.

I am in possession of an electronic copy (PDF) of the full set of Ron Hubbard course materials (including a version of OT VIII) which have been available online for free for more than a decade. There is no conflict between Hubbard's speculations or claims about the state of Operating Thetan made in the 1950's or 1960's and any statement I made above on this thread.

The full fifteen section OT Course (as per the 1978 LRH ED) was supposed to create an Operating Thetan by the end of it, sure. But - for whatever reasons - we never got sections IX-XV (snip)

Oh wait! I actually know the answer to this one!

The reason we never got OT IX-XV...
(drumroll)....

...was death!






Every living thing dies
From the mightiest whale
To the smallest of flies
So why does it come as a massive surprise when it's fate?
Death's not grеat


So regardless if one thinks the bridge is real or not, one thing we can all agree on is that it is not finished and it never will be.

 

[Bill]

Standard Disclaimer: I am making no claims as to the factual accuracy or possible spiritual benefits of Ron Hubbard's OT Course.



Neither. I am in possession of an electronic copy (PDF) of the full set of Ron Hubbard course materials (including a version of OT VIII) which have been available online for free for more than a decade. There is no conflict between Hubbard's speculations or claims about the state of Operating Thetan made in the 1950's or 1960's and any statement I made above on this thread.

The full fifteen section OT Course (as per the 1978 LRH ED) was supposed to create an Operating Thetan by the end of it, sure. But - for whatever reasons - we never got sections IX-XV (and VIII is very questionable at this point), so Hubbard's OT Course is very far from complete.

Whether or not (a) Operating Thetan (as described in the 1950's and 1960's) is even possible and (b) Hubbard's notions about "supernatural" abilities one might stably regain from the full OT Course were accurate, Hubbard's HCO Bulletins and other materials in the available OT Course sections do not address any OT Super-powers with one exception:

Original OT VII (not Solo NOTS) was supposed to rehabilitate a thetan's ability to project an intention. That could be regarded as a "psychic" ability. The materials I have are not in HCOB form and appear to be a recreation, but among other things, they contain exercises in which pre-OT is supposed to communicate spiritually with animals and plants.

Since OT VII was replaced with Solo NOTS in the 1980's, it is a pure guess whether original OT VII was renumbered and supposed to be among the last seven OT course sections.

You are deliberately obfuscating the subject. I'm talking about specific and extravagant claims Hubbard made of "OT powers" resulting from his "tech" and you pretend I'm talking about specific pieces of paper from the OT courses. Stop it.

Hubbard did make extravagant claims that his "tech" would create/recover incredible "OT powers". He never issued any corrections, disclaimers on those claims, those lectures, books and notes. You can deny it all you want. You can obfuscate all you want -- but it's true anyway.

But ... gee, nice try.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I lived pretty far away from large groups of Scios. Consequently, most of what I knew came from what Hubbard
claimed in his fantastical materials. Among some of Hubbard's claims:

• traveling to five other universes outside the mest universe and experiencing said universes with full reality (PDCs)
• looking over the shoulders in real time of communicators running the implant stations that monitor earth ('52)
• visiting the main implant station on Venus for an extended time (SHSBC)
• being able to see the history of any earth locale he was visiting by looking at its time track there and then (PDCs)
• he had full exterior perception (early 50's and Class VIII course specifically)
• full memory of his personal history and time track for the last 80 trillion years down to what he did every day -- but maybe not what he ate for breakfast though (SHSBC)
• was running several bodies in and around the mest universe ('52)

I could write a thick book about all the "godly" claims that Hubbard made, especially in his early years. These are what the more serious students of the tech in the field had read or heard and "knew."

We believed this stuff, I guess. Well, we did! Looking in the rear view mirror with what we know now, it's pretty embarrassing. Those were different times and we were so young and naive, trying to find hope and a happy future in a somewhat chaotic and uncertain world. That's all I can think. But we really did believe back then.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Lee #28]

So why did he jump to his death?

IMO it might have been money problems? Over regged?

Would be interesting to see his finances....

Told he wasn't doing enough?

Not enough room left for his IAS Trophies.....and got despondent?

( rather not get into why one would choose jumping off a tall building to end it all....)

 

[freethinker]

Scientology Inc. is a Destructive Cult. It has also been characterized as a psycho-political cult by various governments. But that's really off topic for this thread,

It was part of the article that Karen posted so it isn't off topic. Calling a cult a destructive cult doesn't define cult.

 

[Veda]

....

Oh wait! I actually know the answer to this one!

The reason we never got OT IX-XV...
(drumroll)....

...was death!

.....

Firstly, the Grade Chart now displayed by Scientology Inc., with fifteen OT levels, was a construct by Miscavige.

The only definite number of OT levels was eight, during the late 1960s into the 1970s.

Hubbard, when interest in Scientology - and income - started to wane, in the mid 1970s, announced that there were 15 additional unreleased OT levels. However, OT 8, as "total cause" (See link below), continued to be sold. (This continued until after NOTs "cause of Life" was announced and released in 1978. Then, quietly, during the next year or two, old OT 8 disappeared. That's when I received a phone call from the AO in LA, telling me that old OT 8 was no longer available, and suggesting I buy books and tapes for that money. I bought the PDC tapes and ended up listening to Hubbard talk about his "very good friend" Aleister Crowley, but that's another topic.)

There was speculation, at the time, that these were OT abilities used in other universes beyond the MEST universe.

Subsequently, over the years, there were other statements.

In truth there were no more OT levels, and Hubbard knew it, and lied.

Link to the 1970 Grade Chart. This is the chart that was prominently displayed on walls and in magazines throughout Scientology's period of greatest expansion, and the beginning of "big league" money-getting.

To paraphrase Hubbard from the OEC volumes: "We can demand total discipline because we can deliver total freedom."

Every level of this Grade Chart was sold by registrars. People were recruited into Scientology, and the Sea Org, and some even sent their children to be servants for L. Ron Hubbard, because they believed what this Grade Chart, and what Hubbard over many years, told them.

The top level, under ability gained, was: "Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space, and time, subjective and objective."

Under ability lost was: "Freedom from inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being."

This was not presented as a hypothetical. It was sold as fact. This was when Scientology established itself.

That people are now told, "Oh, you're aberrated if you think that, " or "You must have a misunderstood word," etc., etc., etc. is beyond outrageous.

What was Frank Suarez told by Scientology Inc. that, ultimately, drove him to suicide?

Did Scientology Inc. tell him: "Well, Scientology worked on us, and we're OT. If you're not, it wasn't the tech that failed. You failed."

Did Frank Suarez throw himself off the balcony to his death believing he was a Degarded Being, or even a Suppressive Person?

Will we ever know?

 

[Veda]

It was part of the article that Karen posted so it isn't off topic. Calling a cult a destructive cult doesn't define cult.

You'll have to polish Miscavige's pointy religion angle with someone else. Not interested in playing.

 

[Lee #28]

Could there be a family fight over money?

Something like Kasey Kasum's daughter...and Scientologist against the man's Widow....over the family fortune?

Would be interesting to know where his wife and family were on the Bridge....( to total freedom....)

 

[Type4_PTS]

<snip>
There is nothing in any of the Ron Hubbard OT Course materials (which Robin Scott and others have leaked to the Internet) that states any of the sections of that course so far released is supposed to bestow any particular psychic powers (ESP, Precognition, Psychokinesis, Remote Viewing, etc), supernatural abilities or "OT powers" (an enemy critic fiction). The last seven (7) sections of the OT Course were never piloted or released and and Section VIII is highly questionable as to authenticity.

Because the OT Course was never finished nobody can possibly have completed Ron Hubbard's OT Course. Because of that, no member of the Co$ and no member of any of the Standard Tech independent factions has ever attested to "Operating Thetan" or been issued a certificate saying so. On this one point, the critics are quite correct: there are no OT's.

OT abilities were promoted on a regular basis during the time I was in. On the Grade Chart which I was shown in the late 70's when I came in and in so much of the promotional materials sent out from Flag and the Advanced Organizations.

It was not promoted as something that would be available in the future. It was made crystal clear that some of those amazing abilities were already attainable immediately as abilities gained on the OT levels. If you look at the Advance Magazine OT Phenomena stories you'll see that that is true. Here is a page from one of them:

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.

Hubbard started making vast "OT" claims for his "tech" in 1952. He never stopped, clarified, corrected or modified his claims. You are being disingenuous and/or are extremely ignorant of Hubbard's claims.

For some reason you are not standardly responding to Sneakster's standard "handling".

You are deliberately obfuscating the subject. I'm talking about specific and extravagant claims Hubbard made of "OT powers" resulting from his "tech" and you pretend I'm talking about specific pieces of paper from the OT courses. Stop it. Hubbard did make extravagant claims that his "tech" would create/recover incredible "OT powers". He never issued any corrections, disclaimers on those claims, those lectures, books and notes. You can deny it all you want. You can obfuscate all you want -- but it's true anyway.

But ... gee, nice try.

Yes, he is trying hard! But trying to do what, one might wonder.

ANSWER: Apologies for the redundancy but over the past many years on this message board I have asked Sneakster countless times a simple question, which he has steadfastly refused to answer:

​

Back in the day when Sneakster was a devout devotee of Marty Rathbun's "Indie" blog/discussion website, he was saying some bizarre things on this website, just as bizarre as his current and outlandish claim that Hubbard's OT levels never promised nor referred to supernatural powers or miraculous mojo. So I took a few peeks at Ratbhun's "COMMENTS" section and sure enough--one of Sneakster's comments there directly to Rathbun answered my question in total when he posted to Rathbun that "...the only reason he goes on ESMB is to handle people there who have over-restimulation from OSA sock puppets."​

As I mentioned, I have asked him perhaps dozens of times over the years if that is still his purpose in posting on ESMB. Not surprisingly, he refuses to answer or even acknowledge that question.

In my view, here are the essential "tech" reasons and explanations about Sneakster trying to run his furious little gaslighting crusades on Ex Scientologists:

• Like all good Scientologists and Indie Scientologists, one must always "flow power to power" and the ultimate power is L. Ron Hubbard. Ergo, there is Sneakster offering a "snarling defense" of Ron (see the HCOPL "Responsibility of Leaders") but also "not allowing others to besmirch the good name of L. Ron Hubbard" (as was the self-confessed mission of then-Indie king Marty Rathbun).
• The concept of Cognitive Dissonance is ever present. Perhaps with Scientologists it should be framed "Cognition Dissonance", LOL.
• The practice of TR-L. The Training Routine that teaches effective "Lying" (LINK HERE)
• The practice of Reporters TRs. (LINK HERE if you need a reminder of how despicably corrupt the cult is)
• The practice of "Shore Stories".

CONCLUSION: Scientology at all levels is essentially and forever about only two (2) things:
.....1. The MONEY.
.....2. The HOAX of promising marks the state of OT and therein the return of their godlike supernatural powers, miracles and eternity. Approximately 0.1% of Scientology is about banking the money and the other 99.9% of Scientology is about variously and diabolically ingenious ways to gaslight victims about their dormant magical powers that will so very easily and quickly be recovered on OT I through OT VIII. Thus, for all intents and purposes the entirety of Scientology is only about OT powers, and 0.1% of Scientology is about ringing up the sale on a cash register and putting the money inside the drawer.

FREE BONUS TR 3 SECTION: Hey Sneakster, is the only reason you still post on ESMB to "handle people who have overrestimulation from OSA sock-puppets"?

.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.

I am in possession of an electronic copy (PDF) of the full set of Ron Hubbard course materials, including a version of OT VIII.

.
Impressive! However. . .
I
I am in possession of the ability to read, understand and recognize all of Hubbard's lies about OT miracles in the full set of materials you have.

Checkmate.


.

 

[Chuck J.]

Tony Ortega wrote:



The Puerto Rican police (he lived in San Juan) haven't even completed their investigation according to Mondo Hispanico (updated 27 Feb, 2021)

But hey, who cares about truth when we are in the propaganda business, eh ? There is no official Cause of Death, yet here is Tony Ortega is happily defaming the poor man who may have suffered an accident or even been murdered. At this point in time (28 Feb 2021 9:10AM PST), reporting Mr. Suarez's death as a suicide is an outright lie.

[Edit: Correction]On the basis of other evidence posted on this thread, I hereby retract my statement that Mr. Ortega was lying about this matter. My apologies. I am leaving the original comment unaltered for the sake of truth.[/edit]

How can a $cientology OT8 be murdered or even have an accident?

Was he PTS? Did he not have the knowingness to see that someone wanted to kill him? Or that the MEST Universe was about to involve him in an accident?

What does that say about $cientology? Is it all bullshit?

 

[F.Bullbait]

Here,here, now...in these situations of gravity, best to first seek sage counsel...

 

[Veda]

How can a $cientology OT8 be murdered or even have an accident?

Was he PTS? Did he not have the knowingness to see that someone wanted to kill him? Or that the MEST Universe was about to involve him in an accident?

What does that say about $cientology? Is it all bullshit?

No its not all bullshit. It has bits of truth.

It wasn't an accident. He was driven to suicide by Scientology Inc.

And it's really not funny. It's tragic.

 

[ExitLeft]

I do not mean to detract from the loss- for it is truly tragic.

I do mean to comment though, on someone trying to defend the indefensible, such as Scientology. The goods have not been delivered. I know it's a free country and free speech should be celebrated at will, but come on...defending the indefensible on an Ex- Scientology message board is at the very least laughable. It would be best to reserve your dignity today and fight the battle elsewhere.

 

[Karakorum]

The top level, under ability gained, was: "Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space, and time, subjective and objective."

Under ability lost was: "Freedom from inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being."

This was not presented as a hypothetical. It was sold as fact. This was when Scientology established itself.

Yeah and clears should have perfect recall and 10/10 eyesight. Guess that must exp-lain why my memory is so darn bad.

 

[Leah]

!!!

I’m lost here ...

“The cult has tried very hard to get his wife fired; They have repeatedly try to influence the United Nations (where she works) to take her out.”....

You are talking about Elizabeth González and Frank Suarez ???

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I’m lost here ...

She was referring to writer and blogger Tony Ortega's wife in that comment.