An honest & sane version of Scn ?

guanoloco

As-Wased
Well...I'm an idiot.

I'm not a Scientologist and I'm not practicing any tech or anything like that. There's no processing or auditing or anything of that nature. I don't advocate any form of Scientology or Hubbard to anyone.

I think there's a tremendous amount of things in Scientology that are workable concepts.

The problem is that everything that was discovered/revealed/found was twisted and perverted by Hubbard as a form to control and manipulate people as "slaves" or whatever the hell the psycho did.

Admin definitions are laser precise and I've personally witnessed tons of behavioral changes with auditing and some physical changes that are directly due to this stuff. I've had wins that continue to this day and I find beneficial and appreciate.

ARC/KRC the Tone Scale, the Comm Cycle and tons of other findings are good concepts and come from keen and astute observations.

It's this workability and positive applications that make the whole trap to begin with.

I don't know how much, if any, of this stuff Hubbard came up with or if he was merely the catalyst that brought in all these people who did the findings and then he latched onto it and turned it into methods of manipulation. I don't know.

The idea of isolating consciousness for study and noting its attributes and all that is great.

Many of these concepts are great...many of the scales and all that are great.

But the net effect was a tremendously negative experience and makes none of it worth it.

Had this been an honest exploration and endeavor one can only imagine.

I do recommend that people read Dianetics for the simple fact that it clearly gives the message that it's not OK to be fucked up. In today's world everybody is in a rush to be a PTSD gender fluid victim and Dianetics clearly gives the message that being a reactive victim is not a good thing.

The same thing for Science of Survival. Being low-toned, being a problem, mocking up low-toned and problems isn't something to aspire to. This isn't the source of artistry.

The idea of being "interesting" instead of "interested" is a great thing to learn. The "introverted"/"extroverted" Tech Dictionary stuff...the "PC Type A"/"PC Type B" and things of this nature are good for people to read and understand.

Yeah...it would really have been something worthwhile had this been an honest thing to begin with.

But this is something that all cults have. Many cults have basic concepts that are good. A loving god, for instance.

How do you remove the cult from the cult?
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
Are you saying that, without even one positive experience, or sign, of a mundane nature, such as "Gee, that makes sense!" or "I like that!", or "Hey, that was good," you decided to believe some strange guy,
and his cult, when they told you they could make it possible for you to have "the ability to be at cause, knowingly and at will, over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space, and time, subjective and objective," and the "freedom from the inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being" ?

Think back.

Occasionally there would be people, with zero Scientology experience, who were literally taken off the street, told to sign a Sea Org contact, which they did, and dressed in a Sea Org uniform, all because some stranger had told them to do it. But that was rare.

Usually, a person had a positive experience of some kind (at the bottom of, or under, the Grade Chart) which led them to thinking, "If this was good, then the rest, high up on the Chart, must be really good!"

That's a common pattern.

Link to Unsolicited advice



You're not missing much, but you seem to be overlooking the first, simple, positive thing that led you to make a "leap of faith" and believe the rest.

:scratch:

@Veda

When the next ex scientologist newbie arrives observe what happens, what has always happened ... they will almost certainly be warmly welcomed, treated with respect and if they ask for help or advice they will receive it. I doubt that many would want to be 'handled' as you suggest in the link above (Unsolicited advice) which reads like a cult policy ... and I doubt many exes would choose to treat them that way either.

There isn't a problem here that I can see (except perhaps in your head) but if you believe otherwise please point to factual incidents so we all know what it is that you are so determined to correct.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

Think back. . .

You're not missing much, but you seem to be overlooking the first, simple, positive thing that led you to make a "leap of faith" and believe the rest.
.
"Think back"? Now you are running "straightwire" on people so that their occluded memory resolves and they can remember the incidents on their time track that only you can see but they can't? LOL.

The problem with your pushing narratives on others is that life doesn't fit into neat little "tech" boxes that always match your own experiences. People are not all the same as you. You seem insistent that someone has to have a special "win" at the beginning of Scientology that forces them to accept the rest of the Bridge. That is silly to assume that. In fact you are using Hubbard's paradigm of the "earlier beginning" or "earliest incident on the chain" in order to explain and/or repair their reactive behavior.

Someone can just as easily do Scientology for other reasons than you are pushing. They might, for example just hear Hubbard (or another Scientologist) tell a lie. That might trick them into wanting to try auditing and Clear or even OT levels. No win involved at all. Just a simple lie.

I can think of 100 other reasons that someone tries Scientology that are different than what you insist others must "think back" and remember.

I don't think you are going to recruit believers by telling others what happened to them. Try listening instead. Or at least if you are going to try to force others to remember mental image pictures that only you can see on their time track, at least have the courtesy of letting them use your "self-analysis perceptic wheel" during the session. LOL.

1619800840283.jpeg
 
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ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
Beyond that, unless someone steps forward with some astonishing revelations, I am pretty well convinced that nobody really knows anything about what is going on in this world or any others. Clueless, utterly clueless about the nature of life and the universe. The best storytellers are able to graduate to inordinately rich/powerful religious leaders, politicians and music/movie megastars.
Exactly where I've ended up about it all, though I'm not dismayed by it. Somehow I've
managed to create my own set of stories to tell myself and others and I'm fine with those.
Difference is I know they're my own personal stories. Stuff I made up and choose to own.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Exactly where I've ended up about it all, though I'm not dismayed by it. Somehow I've
managed to create my own set of stories to tell myself and others and I'm fine with those.
Difference is I know they're my own personal stories. Stuff I made up and choose to own.
.
Yes, exactly! One can view the cosmic mysteries of life in different ways. Rather than reacting (to the inevitable human condition of clueless-ness) with dull, apathetic sadness---one can just as easily feel anticipation and excitement about the possibilities to discover any answer or slightest clue at some point in the future.

I think that unquenched curiosity can serve as one of the great driving forces and divine pleasures in life!

.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.
Somehow I've managed to create my own set of stories to tell myself and others and I'm fine with those.
.
On second thought, I submit that what you are suggesting is a dangerous practice! To be on the safe side, I strongly recommend you first test each of your own stories for accuracy by verifying them on a fully charged e-meter.

And be sure to keep meticulous written records. Once I was challenged by another and rudely accused of "making up" fictitious fables, imagined stories and fake characters like Billy Blowdown and Don Hubbard. However, I immediately showed them the long fall reads which were in my session worksheets and they promptly backed off and apologized.

.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
That's absurd.

Why dd you do Scientology?
.

Well it was a joke but it wasn't "absurd" to spoof your "THINK BACK" auditing command (calling it "straightwire") so another could recover their lost memory---and recall what you were insisting was a memory that they should have. LOL

You asked why did I do Scientology?

ANSWER: Because I was a naive, gullible and credulous young teenager who read a book by a "nuclear physicist and doctor". And because nobody told me that adults and best selling authors like the "scientist" Hubbard could pathologically lie in order to gain riches, power, fame & slaves. And nobody told me what a cult was or that proselytizing cult members claiming to be "clear" and "OT" were also lying--not only to me but to themselves as well.

Alas, Veda, there were no big bangs nor "BIG WINS" that sparked my journey onto the "Bridge to OT", as you insist. If you had a "win" that prompted you to spend time and money in Scientology, congratulations. But, when you have some extra time, please do a clay demo of the difference between your life experiences and others and why it's silly for you to pressure others to recall YOUR memories as their own.

All that I have written and thought is "absurd", right? LOL

.
 
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ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
You're not missing much, but you seem to be overlooking the first, simple, positive thing that led you to make a "leap of faith" and believe the rest.
Not overlooking anything actually, just not memorialized it on this thread. Here's a couple few snippets:

My origin story is here.

Did enjoy Life Repair and surprisingly (at the time) it benefited me. Encouraged me to get more of whatever this was.

During the grades, I had an "up the pole" experience that lasted about 24 hours. Complete silence, complete
serenity, complete happiness for those hours. Was unshakeable. Chased that "state" from then on but never
found it again on the bridge, if I'm being honest. (Others have had similar stories to tell.)

I could go on, but won't. No reason to.

Typical OT encouragement story. Heard many along the way from many OTs. Most all were delusional as it turns out.

Hubbard told so many incredible tales in all his writings and lectures, it would take a thick book to document them all.
These were all encouragement stories and here's just a sampling.

I listened to all the Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures five (5X) times through. The first thirty lectures, ten times
(10X) through. I know all the early claims and fantastical promises cold. I'm very well trained as it turns out.

Again, we've been tilling the same soil (photo) for decades now. Why?

Finding out it was all a fantasy . . . well let's say, it's a jump out an airplane without a parachute and a long way down.
It's a pretty cruel fall I would not wish on anyone.

Then, the duplicity of David Miscavige and all the upper SO management, who all know it's a fraud, yet continue to sell it
as not a fraud for decades, is the ultimate betrayal. They must be pretty evil people. It should have been all put to pasture
in 1986-88 after Hubbard's ignoble ending. Hubbard failed to embody every promise he ever made as evidenced by his
physical and mental state in the final decade of his life.

Thank god, I quit early enough to recreate a wonderful life for myself -- Lisbeth 2.0 -- on the outside. I'm doing well . . . better
than most people I know.
 
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Cat's Squirrel

Active member
I guess that's why I don't go to church anymore -- post my teen years. Pretty disappointed hearing about another
story peddler, who clutches when it matters. Was he a fraud all his life or just at the end? Believed then, but not
when it counts? (He finally died after suffering for a couple years.)

How about "an honest & sane version of" Christianity?

Which begs to ask an even bigger, broader question . . . but I'm not sure what it is right now, LOL.

Additional note: an interesting guy -- John Shelby Spong, 89 -- retired Episcopal bishop​
and a leading spokesperson for liberal Christianity. I have a couple of his books. What he​
says in this short video might apply to what we're talking about here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯​
Great man. You don't even have to read his books to know that - look at the man's eyes. He's got that look of wisdom + compassion that for me indicates someone who's made a lot of spiritual progress (Gary Zukav, author of "The Seat Of The Soul" amongst other books, has the same look).​
 
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JustSheila

Well-known member
Are you saying that, without even one positive experience, or sign, of a mundane nature, such as "Gee, that makes sense!" or "I like that!", or "Hey, that was good," you decided to believe some strange guy,
and his cult, when they told you they could make it possible for you to have "the ability to be at cause, knowingly and at will, over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space, and time, subjective and objective," and the "freedom from the inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being" ?

Think back.

Occasionally there would be people, with zero Scientology experience, who were literally taken off the street, told to sign a Sea Org contact, which they did, and dressed in a Sea Org uniform, all because some stranger had told them to do it. But that was rare.

Usually, a person had a positive experience of some kind (at the bottom of, or under, the Grade Chart) which led them to thinking, "If this was good, then the rest, high up on the Chart, must be really good!"

That's a common pattern.

Link to Unsolicited advice



You're not missing much, but you seem to be overlooking the first, simple, positive thing that led you to make a "leap of faith" and believe the rest.

:scratch:
One of my relatives did a communications course and I didn’t find out until decades later.

He told me he liked the course and got some good things out of it but it was all he wanted to do. He described the people there as pushy about signing onto something else but he just kept telling them no. He was not disappointed in the course but never had the desire to sign for anything else.

Never took the carrot.

People are different.
 

Veda

Well-known member
One of my relatives did a communications course and I didn’t find out until decades later.

He told me he liked the course and got some good things out of it but it was all he wanted to do. He described the people there as pushy about signing onto something else but he just kept telling them no. He was not disappointed in the course but never had the desire to sign for anything else.

Never took the carrot.

People are different.
Yup. So true.

Link to Those who "quit fast" thread.

My favorite "quit fast" story is the guy who (with his wife) did the Communication Course (which had just been made a "Hard TRs" course) for thirty five dollars. It took about two months, full time, and involved, amongst other things, blinkless TR 0 for two hours. At the end of the course he deliberately and mischievously transformed himself into kryptonite to Scientologists by writing how much he liked the course and, now that he's completed it, he going to become a leader in the Hare Krishna movement.

The scream, from the Examiner, of "You're insane!" could be heard throughout the public area and lobby of the Org.

Great fun.

This was a sensitive topic in that particular Org, as one of their own - who had been a staff auditor - had left and begun his own movement. That being Franklin Jones, whose book The Knee of Listening had just been published.







 

Cat's Squirrel

Active member
Yup. So true.

Link to Those who "quit fast" thread.

My favorite "quit fast" story is the guy who (with his wife) did the Communication Course (which had just been made a "Hard TRs" course) for thirty five dollars. It took about two months, full time, and involved, amongst other things, blinkless TR 0 for two hours. At the end of the course he deliberately and mischievously transformed himself into kryptonite to Scientologists by writing how much he liked the course and, now that he's completed it, he going to become a leader in the Hare Krishna movement.

The scream, from the Examiner, of "You're insane!" could be heard throughout the public area and lobby of the Org.

Great fun.

This was a sensitive topic in that particular Org, as one of their own - who had been a staff auditor - had left and begun his own movement. That being Franklin Jones, whose book The Knee of Listening had just been published.







From what I recall of that book Veda, he had very little to say about his time in Scientology; he was much happier to talk about the time he worked with Rudi (Albert Rudolph), a spiritual teacher and Kundalini yogi of the time who owned an Oriental gift shop in New York and also taught Stephen Levine.
 
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JustSheila

Well-known member
I like that “Those Who Quit Fast” thread! Lots of great comments on there, like this story you told :roflmao:


Post in thread 'Those who "quit fast."'
https://forum.exscn.net/threads/those-who-quit-fast.44294/post-1151177

“The quickest entry and exit of which I know was a fellow who, around 10 PM, walked into the Org, carrying a suitcase. He had just arrived from upstate - a long drive.

He said he'd start course tomorrow, but the receptionist was insistent that he start NOW.

He demurred and repeated he'd be back tomorrow.

The receptionist then announced, in a Tone 40 voice, "Scientology is NOT for you!" applying reverse psychology and expecting him to compliantly stay.

The person paused, looked around, and said, "You know, I think you're right," and departed, never to return.”

:LOL:
 

Veda

Well-known member
From what I recall of that book Veda, he had very little to say about his time in Scientology; he was much happier to talk about the time he worked with Rudi (Albert Rudolph), a spiritual teacher and Kundalini yogi of the time who owned an Oriental gift shop in New York and also taught Stephen Levine.
The 1971 edition, in chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, discusses Scientology at length.

If you search for the book you'll probably only see a list of editions beginning with 1972, or 1973, which briefly mention Scientology, and later editions which omit any mention of Scientology.


________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​


Julio Delatorre, an old friend from my days at Stanford, came to dinner. He was animatedly involved in an organization called Scientology, which was headed and exclusively developed by a man named L. Ron Hubbard.

After I had worn out the conversation about my years of yoga and my experiences in India, my friend became more enthusiastically involved in describing his experiences in Scientology. I began instead to listen to him.

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...


___________________________________________Temporary end of quote__________________________________________

This is where the "beezone.com" quote ends due to copyright limitations. If I recall correctly, Jones wrote some positive things about the lower grades, and then went on to discuss the Clearing and OT levels:

_________________________________________Quote continued____________________________________________​


But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

The people with whom I worked were chronically seeking release and "exteriorization" from the contents of the mind and from the physical body. This was itself a motivation out of fear and very little wisdom. To be sure, the evidence of exteriorization is conclusive, as it appears in works such as those of Jung. But nowhere in spiritual literature is it offered as the goal of life. Neither is it declared to be a necessary event in every case, prior to perfect knowledge.

In Scientology, however, exteriorization is the object of constant seeking. It is the sign of a period in cosmic history when spiritual beings had great powers and mobile freedom in the spiritual universe. Thus, it is pursued quite apart from any kind of higher wisdom. Exteriorization and various powers are sought for their own sake. Even the phenomenon supposed to be attained at "O.T. 8," the highest stage of Scientology auditing at present, is called "total power."

I had taken up Scientology for reasons of my own and allowed myself to discover in it parallels to my own motives and experience. Thus, I had failed to recognize the precise nature of the study itself. It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into.

While I was busy doing the O. T. levels I dropped all my resistance to the internal operation of Shakti and began to recover my earlier state of awareness. The phenomena of exteriorization was not unfamiliar to me, but its importance was quite different from that in which it was conceived in Scientology. For me, it was only one of the possible phenomena encountered in the growth of real consciousness. I attached no necessity or radical importance to it, nor to any other kind of "power."

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.


____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________

Above is a pretty good chunk of the orignal chapter.

Jones gradually descended into abusive cult leader mode over a few years.

Jones left behind a small and fiercely dedicated personality cult that protects his image. They seem to have purged this chapter from the Internet.

After Scientology, Jones went from being a good natured "God man," to be a bad tempered, sex crazed, carnival sideshow "God man."




If someone has a (paper) copy of the orignal book, that is probably the only way to ensure that the content is complete and unedited.

Interesting observations. Too bad he went nuts.

Oh well.



Maher Baba, an earlier God man, was more fun at parties.







 

Cat's Squirrel

Active member
The 1971 edition, in chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, discusses Scientology at length.

If you search for the book you'll probably only see a list of editions beginning with 1972, or 1973, which briefly mention Scientology, and later editions which omit any mention of Scientology.


________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​


Julio Delatorre, an old friend from my days at Stanford, came to dinner. He was animatedly involved in an organization called Scientology, which was headed and exclusively developed by a man named L. Ron Hubbard.

After I had worn out the conversation about my years of yoga and my experiences in India, my friend became more enthusiastically involved in describing his experiences in Scientology. I began instead to listen to him.

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...


___________________________________________Temporary end of quote__________________________________________

This is where the "beezone.com" quote ends due to copyright limitations. If I recall correctly, Jones wrote some positive things about the lower grades, and then went on to discuss the Clearing and OT levels:

_________________________________________Quote continued____________________________________________​


But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

The people with whom I worked were chronically seeking release and "exteriorization" from the contents of the mind and from the physical body. This was itself a motivation out of fear and very little wisdom. To be sure, the evidence of exteriorization is conclusive, as it appears in works such as those of Jung. But nowhere in spiritual literature is it offered as the goal of life. Neither is it declared to be a necessary event in every case, prior to perfect knowledge.

In Scientology, however, exteriorization is the object of constant seeking. It is the sign of a period in cosmic history when spiritual beings had great powers and mobile freedom in the spiritual universe. Thus, it is pursued quite apart from any kind of higher wisdom. Exteriorization and various powers are sought for their own sake. Even the phenomenon supposed to be attained at "O.T. 8," the highest stage of Scientology auditing at present, is called "total power."

I had taken up Scientology for reasons of my own and allowed myself to discover in it parallels to my own motives and experience. Thus, I had failed to recognize the precise nature of the study itself. It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into.

While I was busy doing the O. T. levels I dropped all my resistance to the internal operation of Shakti and began to recover my earlier state of awareness. The phenomena of exteriorization was not unfamiliar to me, but its importance was quite different from that in which it was conceived in Scientology. For me, it was only one of the possible phenomena encountered in the growth of real consciousness. I attached no necessity or radical importance to it, nor to any other kind of "power."

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.


____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________

Above is a pretty good chunk of the orignal chapter.

Jones gradually descended into abusive cult leader mode over a few years.

Jones left behind a small and fiercely dedicated personality cult that protects his image. They seem to have purged this chapter from the Internet.

After Scientology, Jones went from being a good natured "God man," to be a bad tempered, sex crazed, carnival sideshow "God man."




If someone has a (paper) copy of the orignal book, that is probably the only way to ensure that the content is complete and unedited.

Interesting observations. Too bad he went nuts.

Oh well.



Maher Baba, an earlier God man, was more fun at parties.







He was a very intelligent man and studied at Columbia at one point. Some of his insights into such matters as religion and philosophy, in books such as "The Transmission of Doubt" and "Scientific Evidence of The Existence Of God Will Soon Be Announced From The White House" (hope I got the title right) are worth reading IMO.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
How do you remove the cult from the cult?
I guess we still are on the step of "removing the men from the cult". Some are even still on the "removing the cult from the man" step.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
While the idea of starting a high-control religious group with dozens of bright-eyed followers calling me God and fulfilling all of my twisted financial, sexual and culinary desires had crossed my mind... that plan never got off the ground due to a severe charisma deficiency on the part of the accountable unit.

So I do the next best thing and just hang out on the forums annoying people with how awesome I am.


Also, is HH still standing at the crossroads and arguing with the stop sign?
The thing I find vastly amusing, is that by the time LRH got to the point where he had a bunch of cute, young Messenger girls following him around in hot pants, he was apparently too impotent to really enjoy them.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
The thing I find vastly amusing, is that by the time LRH got to the point where he had a bunch of cute, young Messenger girls following him around in hot pants, he was apparently too impotent to really enjoy them.
You conveniently skipped the culinary desires part. Maybe they cooked really well. :confused:
 
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