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haiqu

Member
I watched Leah's interview about her dismay at the materials of OT III last night. One point that stood out - and I'm not a C/S so evaluate for yourself - but her description of her mother being in the room when she opened the pack spoke volumes about her situation.

I get the idea that she was not doing Scientology on her own determinism, and therefore shouldn't have been on lines at all.

PTS to the gills.
 

haiqu

Member
Are you saying Leah would not have been dismayed with the OT materials if she had been there on her own determinism, and not "PTS"?
I'm saying that robots don't get case gain.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
I get the idea that she was not doing Scientology on her own determinism, and therefore shouldn't have been on lines at all.
That's called "being a 2nd gen scientologist".

Leah was at least an adult at that time in her life when she was on OTIII. But she started at a much younger age. When you are a kid, you don't get to decide to do scientology "on your own determinism".

Certainly not if you are living in a scienology facility like the AB. You think anyone asked me or my sister if we want to do word-clearing and other stuff back then? Hell no.
 

Veda

Well-known member
I'm saying that robots don't get case gain.
OK, you're saying Leah Remini didn't get case gain on OT 3 because she was a robot.

The view you're expressing is that people who don't think Hubbard's Scientology was cool (prior to being "squirreled" by Miscavige) have something wrong with them. This is straight out of Hubbard 1955 Manual on Dissemination.

OT 3 was dreamt up by Hubbard during his brief mental breakdown (while he moped in bed, surrounded by bottles of pills, and being fed soup by Virginia Downsborough). It was his explanation to himself for his humiliating failure during his most recent (1966) trip to southern Africa. That "explanation" allowed him to rebound, and make a new start as the Commodore (self esteem restored).

He invented Xenu, and the OT 3 materials as the (super) "engram necessary to resolve the case," Unfortunately, it was an imaginary (super) engram (which, nonetheless, boosted Hubbard's morale and got him out of bed and stopped his moping). Hubbard began the Sea Org, the Commodore's Messengers, and wrote the Responsibility of Leaders (Bolivar/"Pink Legs") Policy Letter, and Scientology (energized, but less insane) was off to the races, so to speak.

OT 3 is Hubbard's "case," and, as such, imposing it on others, in auditing sessions, is is a giant Evaluation and a violation of the Auditor's Code.

I mention the Auditor's code because I'm sure you care about the Auditor's code and take it seriously.

It's interesting that former Case Supervisor International, David Mayo, made an attempt to remove OT 3 from the Grade Chart before being shot down by Hubbard.

People who do not have "case gain" on OT 3, or who object to "OT 3," are not "robots," or some other derogatory categorization.

Link to the Leah Remini - Scientology is not a religion thread.

Link to The complete 1938 Skipper letter thread.


 

haiqu

Member
OK, you're saying Leah Remini didn't get case gain on OT 3 because she was a robot.

The view you're expressing is that people who don't think Hubbard's Scientology was cool (prior to being "squirreled" by Miscavige) have something wrong with them. This is straight out of Hubbard 1955 Manual on Dissemination.
Don't paraphrase me, dickhead. Torching straw men is a tedious exercise in time-wasting.

You dedicate an extraordinary amount of personal attention to discrediting Hubbard for no apparent reason, using rumours and secondhand information from disaffected people. Such is neither the truth nor useful to anyone, since it leads to no greater understanding. And changing the subject from technical points to personalities is just aberrated.

I know several people from the 1970s who left Scientology in disgust after seeing the OT materials. And I can agree with your point that - compared to grades auditing - the presentation of a specific incident might be construed as evaluation of the person's case. The proof of the pudding is in running it and finding out if it discharges and leaves the person in a better condition.

But one cannot run anything when being audited on other-determinism. So what I'm saying is that there are many reasons a person might not gain on OT III, and in Leah's case it is my humble opinion that she probably wasn't ready for it. Her reaction is akin to a random non-Scientologist who might come across the materials on the internet.
 
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haiqu

Member
That's called "being a 2nd gen scientologist".

Leah was at least an adult at that time in her life when she was on OTIII. But she started at a much younger age. When you are a kid, you don't get to decide to do scientology "on your own determinism".
Correct.

Certainly not if you are living in a scienology facility like the AB. You think anyone asked me or my sister if we want to do word-clearing and other stuff back then? Hell no.
Sure, but that's pretty benign, and I don't see it as more harmful than any other form of education. As one who endured having his knuckles rapped by the edge of a three foot ruler by sadistic Catholic nuns, I'd say you probably had a better time of it.

OTOH I wouldn't try to audit anyone under 16 on anything but light locational and objective processes, and certainly wouldn't expect them to sign a billion year contract.
 

Veda

Well-known member

I'm saying that robots don't get case gain.
OK, you're saying Leah Remini didn't get case gain on OT 3 because she was a robot.

-snip-
Don't paraphrase me, dickhead.

-snip-


If you look extremely closely, the word, "dickheads" appears under "psychs."

You dedicate an extraordinary amount of personal attention to discrediting Hubbard for no apparent reason,
The reason is apparent to most.

using rumors and secondhand information from disaffected people.
Mostly I use reliable witnesses with first hand experience and Hubbard's own words.

Such is neither the truth nor useful to anyone, since it leads to no greater understanding. And changing the subject from technical points to personalities is just aberrated.
I mostly focus on Hubbard writings and examination of the "tech."

I know several people from the 1970s who left Scientology in disgust after seeing the OT materials. And I can agree with your point that - compared to grades auditing - the presentation of a specific incident might be construed as evaluation of the person's case.
Cool.

The proof of the pudding is in running it and finding out if it discharges and leaves the person in a better condition.

-snip-
Would you like to share your wins with us?
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Sure, but that's pretty benign, and I don't see it as more harmful than any other form of education
I would strongly disagree with calling it "benign".

It had all the usual scientology nonsense: victim blaming ("You pulled it in! What did you do to pull it in!?"), word clearing used as punishment ("So Karakorum, please recite from memory all the possible dictionary definitions of the terms "the" and "being"), amends, children sec-checking, white glove inspections etc. On top of it you had all the negative sides of a boarding house school (separation from your family, enforced uniformity, barracks-style living).
Food sucked as much as it did in the SO. I lived in eastern European commieblocks later in my life, but never have I lived in such ran-down and poor living conditions as when I was a kid in the Anthony Building. Broken bathroom tiles, moldy carpets, furniture that had fungi.. all the fun stuff. Passing a white glove inspection in that hole was a joke.

If you want to hear about the living conditions in the Anthony Building from someone else than just me, then there is an interview with Zoe Woodcraft. You can see the interview below on youtube, timestamp 21:16 - 27:00

Zoe just reminded me that there was no reliable medical care or first aid either (ironically enough: later in life I would see the same thing from the other side of the fence, as I was with investigations team dealing with workplace accidents in the SO).

I know that some kids at the ranch had it worse, because there were numerous sex abuse claims there (Which I never experienced in LA) but there was kid-on-kid physical abuse even in LA.

In short: It wasn't good.

As one who endured having his knuckles rapped by the edge of a three foot ruler by sadistic Catholic nuns, I'd say you probably had a better time of it.
I suspect the living conditions at most Catholics schools are much better than scientology in LA. And back as a kid, I'd happily traded my hours of M9 word clearing for a few blows with the ruler.

I mean it was a bit easier for me, because I used to live a normal suburban California middle-class life before I got sent to live the AB. But I knew people who were born to SO or staff parents and who never had any other life, they always lived in a facility. These are the people who have it worst.

OTOH I wouldn't try to audit anyone under 16 on anything but light locational and objective processes, and certainly wouldn't expect them to sign a billion year contract.
I signed my contract when I was over 16 (let's leave it at that). But processing and TRs etc were not really the main problems. I actually enjoyed TR0 as a kid and I feel I got something out of it.
The real tech "culprit" for kids was the student hat and word-clearing. "Education" was used as punishment and you must also remember that the nannies were almost exclusively people who got that post as some sort of demotion or punishment. So the nannies were very often very bitter people at the lowest points in their lives.
They got assigned babysitting as punishment and often they in turn "shared the pain" with the kids, pushing punishment further down. Not all of the nannies were assholes, but some of them definitely were.
 
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