Aaron Smith Levin....discussing how to go accomplish Tax exemption *IMPORTANT VIDEO*

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
I can post here the same reply I posted as acomment under the vid in YT:

"Great vid. I'm not sure that the main factor preventing politicians from tacking scientology is just fear. Back in the day the Italian mafia was far more scary and dangerous than CoS, but politicians and attorneys took them on. I think the two main factors that make politicians not want to deal with the CoS problem are:
1. Scientology is tiny, but it is hiding behind the massive elephant in the room - US religious laws. the Priest-penitent clauses, religious arbitration legislation and tax-exemption status of established religions - these are the big issues. Politicians are not afraid of scientology, but they are afraid of triggering a backlash from the Evangelicals or Muslims or orthodox Jews. Taking on the cults might falsely signal to the big religions that they are gonna be next. Especially if anti-cult legislation and activity will come from the Democratic party. The fear of secularization and "liberal atheists elites" is massive.​
2. Scientology is tiny, few people really care that much about it nationally. I understand its different in Clearwater and downtown LA, but far less so in swing states like Ohio or Georgia.​

I think we are still far away from revoking their tax-exemption, because the incoming criminal indictments and convictions are gonna be against individual scientologists and not against any of the corporate structures of the organization itself. It would be a game-changer if anyone won a serious criminal lawsuit against any of the corporate structures.

Call me weird, but I think the greatest 'threat' to Miscavige is not external, but internal. The quickest way for the CoS to collapse (or at least dissolve into numerous non-abusive small entities) is if whole orgs in the US started to leave the church and become independent like what happened in Israel with Dror.

If for example the Pasadena Org, LA org and the Silicon Valley org would brake away taking all their people with them to become independent, the rest of the central Church would collapse within a week. That's my estimate.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
I can post here the same reply I posted as acomment under the vid in YT:

"Great vid. I'm not sure that the main factor preventing politicians from tacking scientology is just fear. Back in the day the Italian mafia was far more scary and dangerous than CoS, but politicians and attorneys took them on. I think the two main factors that make politicians not want to deal with the CoS problem are:
1. Scientology is tiny, but it is hiding behind the massive elephant in the room - US religious laws. the Priest-penitent clauses, religious arbitration legislation and tax-exemption status of established religions - these are the big issues. Politicians are not afraid of scientology, but they are afraid of triggering a backlash from the Evangelicals or Muslims or orthodox Jews. Taking on the cults might falsely signal to the big religions that they are gonna be next. Especially if anti-cult legislation and activity will come from the Democratic party. The fear of secularization and "liberal atheists elites" is massive.​
2. Scientology is tiny, few people really care that much about it nationally. I understand its different in Clearwater and downtown LA, but far less so in swing states like Ohio or Georgia.​

I think we are still far away from revoking their tax-exemption, because the incoming criminal indictments and convictions are gonna be against individual scientologists and not against any of the corporate structures of the organization itself. It would be a game-changer if anyone won a serious criminal lawsuit against any of the corporate structures.

Call me weird, but I think the greatest 'threat' to Miscavige is not external, but internal. The quickest way for the CoS to collapse (or at least dissolve into numerous non-abusive small entities) is if whole orgs in the US started to leave the church and become independent like what happened in Israel with Dror.

If for example the Pasadena Org, LA org and the Silicon Valley org would brake away taking all their people with them to become independent, the rest of the central Church would collapse within a week. That's my estimate.
The latest data that I have seen with my own eyes (a couple years old now) are the s.o. guys at pac level, and they would all give their lives for him. I can't speak for higher up the food chain. Or has he decimated the food chain?
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
If for example the Pasadena Org, LA org and the Silicon Valley org would brake away taking all their people with them to become independent, the rest of the central Church would collapse within a week. That's my estimate.
Measures are in place to prevent that, and have been since LRH's day.

The org buildings are all owned by corporate Scn.

You have people who have signed contracts precluding any such.

Plus "Independent Scn" is not going so well either.

They have more to fear from people walking away entirely, and getting on with life.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
The latest data that I have seen with my own eyes (a couple years old now) are the s.o. guys at pac level, and they would all give their lives for him. I can't speak for higher up the food chain. Or has he decimated the food chain?
Measures are in place to prevent that, and have been since LRH's day.

The org buildings are all owned by corporate Scn.

You have people who have signed contracts precluding any such.

Plus "Independent Scn" is not going so well either.

They have more to fear from people walking away entirely, and getting on with life.
By 'orgs' I didn't mean the buildings or the corporate structure. I meant the people as a group. Contrary to Davey's propaganda, scientology isn't the buildings. It isn't even really the books or the tech. It is the people and their strength as a group, as an organized body of similar-minded men and women.

Miscavige can survive having 10 000 people who would walk away as single individuals. In contrast he won't survive 500 people leaving as a cohesive group.

10 000 individuals who walk out - well, they can just fade away. Even if they are loud, they can be declared and vicious rumors spread about them. The post they left can be filled by someone sent from someone else.

But if a whole local org - including the EO and the ED would stand up and walk out as a cohesive group? That's a disaster for Davey, because no way could he hide that from the public. Even if he would send a full suit of SO members to occupy the now vacant posts, these would be strangers in a strange land and would be faced by a complete "shadow org" already waiting for them to compete with.

If that "shadow org" would then go on to have a less abusive atmosphere, no OSA and inv invigilation, no hard ethics, no impossible tst goals and no crazy regging? If that "shadow org" would then even moderately thrive? That could cause a paradigm shift even among the hardcore true believers. Dave would have lost the "mandate of heaven".

Davey's empire rests on true believers. Unless we can take them out of his structures, we will never knock him out. And the only way to take true believers from under his fist is to enable them to leave as a cohesive group into a 'safe' pro-Hubbard society external to the CoS.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but a trickle of people like us and a few gay kids of long time scientologists leaving via the Aftermath foundation will not cause a paradigm shift. IT will make the cult weaker, but the cult will still be able go on indefinitely.

@Dotey OT - you mentioned loyal SO members. I can only speak for myself - the hardest part about leaving the SO was:
  • Knowing that I can't take my people with me
  • That by leaving I'm gonna expose them to a crash-stat and ruthless punishment
  • That I will need to walk out into a "strange land" without knowing anyone on the outside.
If the SO members, especially 2nd gens, would be allowed to see that there exists a possibility to leave as a whole group, they would be 95% less afraid of doing so.

But they need to have a 'society' to go to. Some sort of 'shining city on a hill' that's safe for them, but outside of Davey's grasp.
  1. The Debbie Cook letter almost caused a paradigm shift, but then she settled with the church and stopped speaking out. Her letter alone caused a flood of people to leave, but they left as individuals and Davey was able to contain that leak.
  2. The secession of Dror occurred as a cohesive group and Davey was never able to get that turf back. But because it was faraway in Israel and because there was a linguistic and cultural barrier between them and most scientologists (English speaking Americans), Davey was able to 'quarantine' Dror and contain that leak too.
If one could combine both these strategies: Have an entire org leave, but this time in the continental US, all the while remaining 'true believers' Debbie-Cook style and then acting as a shining city on a hill for the "still-ins", Dave's empire would collapse under it's own weight.


I'm not satisfied with seeing the CoS slowly bleed membership drip by drip so that it might possibly die 5 generations later. Call me an overambitious and bloody-persistent SOB, but I'd be satisfied with nothing less than a knockout blow. A decapitation strike.
 
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Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Addendum:

I am not attacking the aftermath foundation in my previous post above. It is an amazing great initiative and I fully support it.
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't stop at that alone.
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
I can post here the same reply I posted as acomment under the vid in YT:

"Great vid. I'm not sure that the main factor preventing politicians from tacking scientology is just fear. Back in the day the Italian mafia was far more scary and dangerous than CoS, but politicians and attorneys took them on. I think the two main factors that make politicians not want to deal with the CoS problem are:
1. Scientology is tiny, but it is hiding behind the massive elephant in the room - US religious laws. the Priest-penitent clauses, religious arbitration legislation and tax-exemption status of established religions - these are the big issues. Politicians are not afraid of scientology, but they are afraid of triggering a backlash from the Evangelicals or Muslims or orthodox Jews. Taking on the cults might falsely signal to the big religions that they are gonna be next. Especially if anti-cult legislation and activity will come from the Democratic party. The fear of secularization and "liberal atheists elites" is massive.​
2. Scientology is tiny, few people really care that much about it nationally. I understand its different in Clearwater and downtown LA, but far less so in swing states like Ohio or Georgia.​

I think we are still far away from revoking their tax-exemption, because the incoming criminal indictments and convictions are gonna be against individual scientologists and not against any of the corporate structures of the organization itself. It would be a game-changer if anyone won a serious criminal lawsuit against any of the corporate structures.

Call me weird, but I think the greatest 'threat' to Miscavige is not external, but internal. The quickest way for the CoS to collapse (or at least dissolve into numerous non-abusive small entities) is if whole orgs in the US started to leave the church and become independent like what happened in Israel with Dror.

If for example the Pasadena Org, LA org and the Silicon Valley org would brake away taking all their people with them to become independent, the rest of the central Church would collapse within a week. That's my estimate.
I agree with you here. The whole religious angle makes it very hard to come at Scientology because of how much protection they get. And the second someone comes at Scientology they get to cry about discrimination and they will work to rally as many other religious groups to their cause, so it's a very uphill battle. I also think we are a long ways from revoking tax exemption, but things have not been going well for Scientology, these court cases could turn out extremely bad for Scientology.

I think Scientology might not be as small in the public mind as you think. Look at what happened with the VP race. I know nothing ever got confirmed (and nothing ever will be) but I believe the Scientology ties are what turned that race. The timing was too coincidental for me to think anything else. Scientology has been in the news/on TV a lot and I think the general public hate it, it is extremely unpopular. This creates a very dangerous situation for Scientology, they are not going to have much (if any) support if they do come under the spotlights.

Unfortunately I don't see any sort of internal rebellion happening. DM, for whatever reason, is still very popular with most Scientologists.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
The whole religious angle makes it very hard to come at Scientology because of how much protection they get. And the second someone comes at Scientology they get to cry about discrimination and they will work to rally as many other religious groups to their cause, so it's a very uphill battle. I
Yep, of all the stupid scn initiatives, the STAND (SLIME) league's "OMFG they are coming after religious freedom! We are all in the same boat!" spiel is actually the one quite effective weapon they have.

What could be the solution? Run the opposition to cults as a bipartisan initiative. Make sure NOT to have it as a "democract-candidate-only" thing. Include prominent Evangelical Republicans and also Jews and Muslims.

That way they won't be able to hide behind the big religions anymore.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Yep, of all the stupid scn initiatives, the STAND (SLIME) league's "OMFG they are coming after religious freedom! We are all in the same boat!" spiel is actually the one quite effective weapon they have.

What could be the solution? Run the opposition to cults as a bipartisan initiative. Make sure NOT to have it as a "democract-candidate-only" thing. Include prominent Evangelical Republicans and also Jews and Muslims.

That way they won't be able to hide behind the big religions anymore.
One thing about Christianity in the US, is we have lots and lots of small independent Protestant sects, in addition to the big organizations like Catholicism. Many of them would be skittish about it being easy to label a church a cult, just because it doesn't have millions of members.
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
Yep, of all the stupid scn initiatives, the STAND (SLIME) league's "OMFG they are coming after religious freedom! We are all in the same boat!" spiel is actually the one quite effective weapon they have.

What could be the solution? Run the opposition to cults as a bipartisan initiative. Make sure NOT to have it as a "democract-candidate-only" thing. Include prominent Evangelical Republicans and also Jews and Muslims.

That way they won't be able to hide behind the big religions anymore.
I don't know that there is an easy answer/solution. I think it starts with investigating the criminal aspects of what the Church does and focusing on those. Unfortunately the Church is pretty adept at handling attacks. No, we don't promise we can cure cancer, look at all these agreements they signed, we never promised them any real world results.

I will say this, if the Church comes under attack/inquiry, I don't see any politicians standing up for them. Scientology is not popular at all, no matter which party you're a member of.

One thing about Christianity in the US, is we have lots and lots of small independent Protestant sects, in addition to the big organizations like Catholicism. Many of them would be skittish about it being easy to label a church a cult, just because it doesn't have millions of members.
Yeah, this has been what's saved them so far. When you look at cults like NXIVM they were doing things so shocking that it couldn't be ignored. Scientology isn't quite at the same level (at least not blatantly).

One thing that I think will have a very negative impact on the Church is if it ever has to release financial records. Even if what's in there doesn't trigger an investigation by some agency I think the general Scientology public (those left) would be shocked. They think the money they give to the IAS goes towards saving the planet. Seeing how much of it is being eaten up by legal fees, PIs, etc. would shock them. Maybe I'm giving Scientologists too much credit though. They've got staff members starving and making way under minimum wage but when DM comes out and says I'm spending millions on useless vaults in the middle of the desert they give three cheers.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
I will say this, if the Church comes under attack/inquiry, I don't see any politicians standing up for them. Scientology is not popular at all, no matter which party you're a member of.
Agreed. But I also don;t see any politicians standing up for Paul Haggis or Leah... or taking any stand at all in the matter.

And that's the problem, because if nobody is gonna take a stand (STAND league pun unintended) then we're gonna be stuck with the status quo. And the status quo is that they are tax exempt. Removal of the exemption must come from the authorities, which means politicians.

So I guess for the politicains to act, we have to make sure the Evangelicals, Jews and the "small independent Protestant sects " that @Enthetan mentioned won't torpedo the whole thing because of fear over their own status.

I think the way forward might be to flip the script. Tell the religious community something like:
"Hey, Scientology is giving religion a bad name. By having Scientology remain tax-exempt, we are just giving the atheists easy ammo. And once they start shooting at Scientology, you will will get hit with the ricochets. So maybe let's remove this 'pile of hazardous material' that is scientology out of your nice tax-exempt home, whaddaya say?"
 
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